PGT: President-Elect Donald J Trump

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by driveway

A comedian has no responsibility towards 'bringing the other side towards them' the only responsibility they have is to the laugh. If it gets a laugh, the comedian is doing their job.

True. But a great many Americans deeply resent being lectured to by smug and narcissistic actors and musicians. The way the vast majority of America's entertainment celebrities so vocally and passionately opposed Trump probably earned him more votes than it lost him. Hollywood was just another of the groups that Americans were giving the finger to by voting Trump.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This may be an issue with differing life experiences, but "free speech" has absolutely been used to justify hate speech and the right to say whatever you want unquestioned in my experience. And it's not just the Sun news comment section, though that's probably a good spot to find it.

Free speech is also why we saw movies and books about homosexuality at a time when most Americans still thought it was offensive.

You can't have your cake and eat it to. If you're someone who wants to express any beliefs outside the mainstream, then you have to accept that others will use the same freedom of speech to say things you find offensive. You don't have to like it. But unless you want to lose your own protection under the law, you have to tolerate it.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

In Canada CPP and Healthcare are entrenched. Can never be touched. Just the mere mention of even a two-tiered system nationally gets you roasted. I think we have to go on what a candidate ran on. Harper raised OAS to 67, that probably killed him. Nobody campaigns on these things so it's never an issue.

Any more entrenched than Social Security and Medicare? Yet those are targets now, and no, Trump did not run on making changes to either of those systems.

Trump ran on killing Obamacare and getting jobs back.

He ran on nothing. He ran on outrage and sensationalism. He never articulated what his policies were or what he was actually going to do. Here's his top ten campaign promises.

1. ‘Build a wall’ — and make Mexico pay for it

Can we agree this is just stupid? It is not physically possible to build a wall along the southern border for many reasons, and there is no way Mexico is going to pay for it.

2. Temporarily ban Muslims from entering the United States

And how does this happen? How does this take place without shredding our constitution and completely losing the moral high ground that America needs to live on?

3. ‘Bring manufacturing (jobs) back’

Again, how does he do this? You can't mandate into law that companies will bring jobs back. You can't mandate punitive charges against companies who exploited the system created by Congress. This would be a reversal of decades of economic policy and implementation of major regulations on the practices and behaviors of American corporations. You can't waive a magic wand and make these things happen. Complex issues require complex solutions, not blanket statements that are fantastical statements with no legal basis.

4. Impose tariffs on goods made in China and Mexico

Again, this is going against decades of policy and trade deals made around the globe. It goes against the intent of the WTO. The President may have the authority to make this call, but it would require Congress to support it. Also, a tariff is likely to just see the cost of goods increase with the cost of the tariff passed onto the consumer. This will just lead to greater inflation.

5. Renegotiate or withdraw from the North American Free Trade Agreement and Trans-Pacific Partnership

This may not be what Trump or anyone else believes is a good thing. You open up negotiations and you are just as likely to lose things as you are to gain. Right now the United States has the best of all worlds in these trade deals. They get access to cheap Canadian resources and cheap Mexican labor. He re-opens NAFTA he may lose on both of those. He may see that wall on the Mexican border become a reality, only not a physical one but an economic one.

6. ‘Full repeal of Obamacare’ and replace it with a market-based alternative

Obamacare is a market-based system. This is proof how little people know about the ACA, especially those who attack it. Trump made this statement long before knowing anything about it. He was going to repeal Obamacare and replace it with something tremendous. No details, just tremendous.

7. Renegotiate the Iran deal

You can only re-negotiate a deal if the other side is open to renegotiation. Trump may be able to be a totalitarian dick-tator in the United States, but that doesn't mean he can bully foreign leaders.

8. Leave Social Security as is

Well, it didn't take long to go back on this promise.

9. Cut taxes

For who? So far the details of his tax plan are to cut taxes on people making over $750K a year and above, and then corporations. Who is going to pay for that tax break for the wealthy? What is left of the middle class. My taxes are going to go up 3-8% based on his tax plan. Great plan! Tremendous! Exactly what we need right now.

10. ‘Bomb’ and/or ‘take the oil’ from ISIS

And how do you do this without leveling cities and putting boots on the ground? And how do you 'take the oil?' That is a war crime. Stupid comment by a very stupid man.

It's questionable whether Obamacare is working or not. Sure the number is 20 million people get coverage for for everyone else premium have gone up again. What he is replace it with we'll see. It's not like killing a system such as Canada's healthcare. It hasn't happened yet so its not one of the things I like or hate yet.

That's because it is so Trump. Lots of talk and bluster, but zero plan or action.

The Carrier deal is good.

Except it isn't. His own party is pissed at this move. He just paid a ransom to a company threatening to take its jobs elsewhere. So now we can expect to see other companies lining up and demanding similar payoffs to keep jobs in the US. Bad precedent is bad precedent. Trump is in way over his head.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.110284ad5f3f

http://www.politicususa.com/2016/12/...d-workers.html

http://theweek.com/articles/664619/b...s-carrier-deal

http://www.vox.com/new-money/2016/12...l-donald-trump

http://www.salon.com/2016/12/01/dona...rate-behavior/

http://www.businessinsider.com/conse...cedent-2016-12

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Ta...-bad-precedent

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/...r_america.html

http://money.cnn.com/2016/12/02/medi...treet-journal/

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...precedent.html

Sessions being appointed Attorney-General is a good move. He'll address the immigration issue. Immigration is not a race issue, it's a numbers and migrant issue. For too long the Democrats were afraid to address it in fear of being called racists. Sessions will take the criticism to fix the problem.

A life-long racist is not the top law man in the land. Great decision.

Also, this shows the lack of understanding of the interconnections between complex social issues affecting the United States. America needs immigration. We have a problem with negative population growth. We have more old people than we have young people. We have a problem with a poorly educated work force. We have a huge problem with funding associated with both Social Security and Medicare. So to address all problems you need to increase the number of people in the country and the workforce to increase the funds going into both Social Security and Medicare. You need to bring in highly trained people because we lack so many of them in the United States.

And for selfish reasons I loved the Taiwan conversation pissing off China. Anything that pissed off the PRC is good in my books instead of once again the Democrats tiptoeing around these issues.

So ignoring decades of foreign policy is a good thing? And its always a good thing to piss off one of the nations that holds the highest percentage of your debt. Taiwan has zero diplomatic or strategic value. This was sheer arrogance or stupidity on his part. I'm leaning with the later.

Things I hate. The tweeting. I do like that a president isn't so elitist that he can tweet but that stuff is just out of control. I'm sure it will be addressed when he's actually in office. The Bannon appointment is troubling because it legitimizes Breitbart as a legit news source.

But for most things. Its wait and see.

Hey, feel free to move down here from your little perch in Canada. Put your flesh and financial future in the game and see how you feel about these developments. It's easy to sit there watching like its a reality TV show, but to those of us who live down here, its just reality. And right now, reality is pretty damn scary. Based on Trump's comments and actions economists are talking about another housing crash. Student loan interest rates are likely to double, and then see changes consuming a larger percentage of discretionary income, and then kill certain programs that were incentives to get into certain industries where loans would be forgiven after a decade of payments. That is without talking about how he is now promising to privatize Social Security and Medicare, moving the money for both of those programs to private accounts and exposing them to market volatility. And he's also talking about pulling a Wisconsin and canceling agreements that were bargained collectively with unions and representative groups, which is going to kill retirement programs for millions of Americans.

So, to recap, Donald Trump ran on a platform with no actual policy details, and rubes bought his bull####, electing an empty promise from an empty suit. Now that he's the elect, he's starting to flesh out these concepts. As an individual in the middle class I am going to see my taxes go up, the interest rate on my student loans adjusted (doubled), the promise to forgive my loans reneged upon, the payment period extended out into my retirement, I'm going to see my pension disappear, and my Social Security and Medicare pushed into the markets where some hedge fund manager can #### me over. On top of that there are talks of my final hedge, the value I have built in my home, could be destroyed by another housing crash. Yeah, it's all good. Thank you low information stupid ass voters.

[Senator Clay Davis]

So with the least qualified individual for a cabinet post ever, Ben Carson, now officially nominated as HUD chairman, it should be fascinating to see what he turns into the grain storage facilities. The Carson confirmation hearings could be the most spectacular ever, he was arguably the dumbest person in the GOP field so watching him answer housing questions by blaming political correctness and the Alinsky method will be utterly hilarious.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This may be an issue with differing life experiences, but "free speech" has absolutely been used to justify hate speech and the right to say whatever you want unquestioned in my experience.

It's the "unquestioned" part that gets me... of course free speech includes hate speech, it includes everything. Even where we have hate speech laws, the Supreme Court recognizes that those laws are limits on freedom of expression, but they're allowable as reasonable limits in a free and democratic society under s.1 of the Charter. I just don't know who the geniuses are that think no one can tell them they're wrong. That's kind of the entire point of the principle. If you'd said "unpunished", that'd be a different thing.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by accord1999

Are they?



Cameron's already gone after Brexit (which he supposedly supported), Hollande is despised so much he's not even bothering to run for reelection because he has no shot, Renzi fell today after his overwhelming defeat in Italy's referendum, even Merkel has weakened and Obama as we all know is being replaced by Trump.

The industrial world has a lot of problems on their plate; chief among them the same issues with employment that defeated Clinton.

Man this is a terrible time for politics globally. As least Trump is going to try and create/save jobs. Trudeau is aiming to do the exact opposite in the name of making a name for himself at the UN.

[Senator Clay Davis]

It's an amazing testament to either the utter stupidity of vast swaths of the population, or to the quality of the right wing bull#### machine, that Trump is considered someone who will create/save jobs, given his rather piss poor record of doing so in the private sector. And ummm, Obama is going to end up with one of the greatest job creation records ever, coming off a near global depression, but it's Trump and co that will at least "try and create/save jobs". Apparently to some people the only criteria to job creation is no regulations and tax cuts and not, you know, actually producing jobs.

[GGG]

So maybe this brings about the question of is free trade good without significant wealth redistribution to the losers. And can a nation produce enough value if their day to day consumption is imported. Europe has significant wealth re-distribution and it still struggles.

The theory behind trade is that you can be more efficient at producing things in concentrated centres with the most skill/ lowest cost and you are able to replace the loss of work with focusing on the industries you have advantages in. Then everyone benefits from lower costs of goods.

If you no longer have a lower middle class can society function which a large divide between the lower class and the upper middle class. The latest stuff on trade shows that while trade is a net positive their are losers that don't recover as anticipated.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

It's the "unquestioned" part that gets me... of course free speech includes hate speech, it includes everything. Even where we have hate speech laws, the Supreme Court recognizes that those laws are limits on freedom of expression, but they're allowable as reasonable limits in a free and democratic society under s.1 of the Charter. I just don't know who the geniuses are that think no one can tell them they're wrong. That's kind of the entire point of the principle. If you'd said "unpunished", that'd be a different thing.

Read Popehat for a while. Then you'll know. In the US, people actually sue other people when told they are wrong.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Free speech is also why we saw movies and books about homosexuality at a time when most Americans still thought it was offensive.



You can't have your cake and eat it to. If you're someone who wants to express any beliefs outside the mainstream, then you have to accept that others will use the same freedom of speech to say things you find offensive. You don't have to like it. But unless you want to lose your own protection under the law, you have to tolerate it.

Right, except for the fact that hate speech above an informal level is against the law. You can say whatever you want rolling down the street or on a message board, but that's about where it ends. And even then, if you haven't noticed, not many places allow that to happen (with or without protection of "free speech")

Like Corsi, you're essentially making the point that free speech is good, which I'm not sure you're going to find anyone here that disagrees, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

It's the "unquestioned" part that gets me... of course free speech includes hate speech, it includes everything. Even where we have hate speech laws, the Supreme Court recognizes that those laws are limits on freedom of expression, but they're allowable as reasonable limits in a free and democratic society under s.1 of the Charter. I just don't know who the geniuses are that think no one can tell them they're wrong. That's kind of the entire point of the principle. If you'd said "unpunished", that'd be a different thing.

Right, we agree. What point are you trying to make? That it's shocking, weird, and downright idiotic that people would distort freedom of speech to include some fairly dumb things that fit their agenda? Again, step outside your bubble. This happens all the time, and I agree it doesn't make sense.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Well, okay, but given that I follow free speech stories pretty closely, and it doesn't strike me as a "thing" outside of internet comments, I don't think I'm in a bubble here... there are lots of people who seem totally confused about the concept of free speech, but it's rare that you see anyone saying it includes a right not to be questioned.

Anyway, how are you asking me what my point is? You were the one who brought it up totally at random and when asked who was making this argument in this thread, suggested googling it. Now you're complaining about people making statements that "no one here disagrees with"? Come on now, this one isn't on me.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Come on now, this one isn't on me.

Right, you're just attempting to debate whether my personal experience really exists on the grounds of "I haven't seen it!"

Cool. Valid point I guess. Moving on.

[photon]

Regarding China and "Democrats tiptoeing", it's obviously got nothing to do with Democrat or Republican, every administration for 37 years has had the same policy and acted the same way. It's not Democrats vs Republican (I thought this kind of classification by label was a bad thing??) it's Trump vs. everyone else.

Carrier deal is good optics for those not really paying attention, but it's nothing like what he promised during the campaign (the opposite, it's exactly what he railed against actually). What he actually promised during his campaign and even re-promised after the Carrier deal was consequences, but that's pretty hollow given Carrier is still shipping more jobs than the Carrier deal saves despite the threat of consequences.

On cancelling Obamacare, well we do have an idea with what they want to replace it with; save and pay for health care yourself. That the US is pretty much the only first world country without some kind of basic universal health care should almost be a human rights issue, and Republicans' desired changes for health care haven't ever been towards that.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Right, you're just attempting to debate whether my personal experience really exists on the grounds of "I haven't seen it!" Cool. Valid point I guess. Moving on.

Man this is a bizarre conversation... I wasn't denying that your personal experience exists, I was denying that this was a widespread phenomenon as far as I knew, and still haven't seen evidence that I'm wrong about that. In other words, you're attempting to debate that this sort of attitude is somehow prevalent because "I've seen it!"

I just don't know where you're looking for it or why you brought it up in response to someone's post, because it sure isn't on here.

[PepsiFree]

Ok.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

AKA, I'm horribly thin-skinned:

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump
If the press would cover me accurately & honorably, I would have far less reason to "tweet." Sadly, I don't know if that will ever happen!

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

This isn't American politics, but it's related, and at least it's a reason to be cheerful this morning. The Austrian election featured a "Trump-alike"; a right wing populist xenophobe who was gaining a lot of steam. But having seen what happened with Brexit and Trump, the adults in the room actually turned out to vote - 75% of eligible voters, in fact. Apparently, he ran on "don't let it happen here", and won.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/.../?cmpid=PM1216

It's as if people have been reminded that if they want a democracy, they have to get involved (I sound like I'm quoting Obama now).

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Man this is a bizarre conversation... I wasn't denying that your personal experience exists, I was denying that this was a widespread phenomenon as far as I knew, living in a completely different country than the one being discussed, and not having much experience day-to-day, and still haven't seen evidence that I'm wrong about that. In other words, you're attempting to debate that this sort of attitude is somehow prevalent because "I've seen it!"

Fixed your post. If you're going to boil this down to a battle of experiences, you're disqualified. As I said to Girly, you guys get to sit on the sidelines and watch this like it is reality TV, and comment accordingly. Can you see that is annoying to those who are living this reality and deal with the consequences on a daily basis? Jesus, a guy walked into a pizzeria and opened fire because of fake news - protected by free speech. You don't see that as problematic?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

This isn't American politics, but it's related, and at least it's a reason to be cheerful this morning. The Austrian election featured a "Trump-alike"; a right wing populist xenophobe who was gaining a lot of steam. But having seen what happened with Brexit and Trump, the adults in the room actually turned out to vote - 75% of eligible voters, in fact. Apparently, he ran on "don't let it happen here", and won.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/.../?cmpid=PM1216

It's as if people have been reminded that if they want a democracy, they have to get involved (I sound like I'm quoting Obama now).

I'm not so optimistic about France:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7453571.html

[Senator Clay Davis]

So Al Gore is at Trump Tower today meeting with Ivanka on climate change. Conservatives are predictably losing their #### and thinking they have been duped by a Democrat (Trump). It seems like everyone is feeling a little duped right now.