Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote, Formenton found not guilty of sexual assault

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

These were options available to the Flames:

1. File a grievance with the league that he has breached contract due to misconduct. Almost certainly results in a lawsuit, especially as it would have occurred before the contract was signed (although undisclosed). Fair enough, I don't really expect a business to do this but it was available to them.
   
2. Publicly announce that the Flames will scratch him until they do their own investigation that proves he was not involved - may open them up to a lawsuit given outcomes but I would respect them for it.
   
3. Simply scratch him without saying anything. They can do it for any reason. Just the #### up and have him as a healthy scratch like they did for Kylington. Let the NHLPA file a grievance that wouldn't go anywhere and make the NHLPA defend the accused rapist.
   
4. Play him until he steps away from the team, then simply release a statement saying he has taken a leave from the team and no further comment will be made.
   
5. Play him until he steps away from the team because he is about to be charged, then release a statement saying he is doing so for mental health reasons because you did the same with Kylington and made good-will.
   
6. Argue he should not be suspended by the league.

It's a problem that they took one of those bottom steps.

"It's a business what do you expect?" Okay, but then let's not claim any moral high ground.

The first 2 “actions” are both specious…each would likely result in an expensive lawsuit (more than the contract was worth).

The next 2 are just stupid. Player is under contract and has neither been accused of, or charged with, anything AT THE TIME. At best, he was indicated as a possible party to an event. Period.

That leaves 5 and 6. They chose 5, which, arguably, was closest to the reality. You’d be pretty useless in that circumstance, too, I’d guess.

But please, maintain your narrative for the enjoyment of all here. Flames bad. Management bad. Money bad. Dube bad. Everyone bad. OpTates good!

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

You seem to equivocating signing a player after an investigation and keeping a player already signed prior to the completion of an investigation. Posters are simply saying those are too different things.

If the oilers now sign Hart, and the Flames Formenton, then you would have a point.

What was stopping the Flames from paying Dube but scratching him?

[OptimalTates]

Oilers bad for signing Kane.

Flames good for playing Dube.

Hockey culture only bad because of every other team!

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

What was stopping the Flames from paying Dube but scratching him?

Nothing. What was stopping them from paying but scratching [pick random player], Sharangovich?

You keep saying “they knew”, but what did they know? We still don’t know.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

The next 2 are just stupid. Player is under contract and has neither been accused of, or charged with, anything AT THE TIME. At best, he was indicated as a possible party to an event. Period.

Woah. Wrong. 100% wrong. He was accused. He was accused in 2018 and a settlement was paid in 2022. This is the problem we have.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

What's the process? The same process when Kane was signed by the Oilers? I'm not saying the Flames broke league rules. I'm saying they are no better than the Oilers. There was nothing stopping the Flames from telling Dube he was scratched, as long as they paid him.

The same process that allowed the Flames to play Dube will be the same process that allows the Oilers to sign Hart, should it occur.

And yeah, good question.

No. There are completely different processes for handling players under contract v. players NOT under contract.

Dube had rights as a contracted player to the Flames.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Oilers bad for signing Kane.

Flames good for playing Dube.

Hockey culture only bad because of every other team!

You still haven't answered my question about if you feel this way why you would cheer for the Flames.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Dube had rights as a contracted player to the Flames.

Yes. To be paid. Like he was. He didn't have a right to play for the Flames. That was a conscious choice they made despite knowing the allegations against him.

All I am saying, the Flames did not cut ties with him when they found out about the allegations. They cut ties with him when the allegations were about to come public. There's a difference. And they certainly did not have to say it was mental health leave. Nothing stopped them from saying "Dube is away from the team. The Flames will not comment further."

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Yes. To be paid. Like he was. He didn't have a right to play for the Flames. That was a conscious choice they made despite knowing the allegations against him.

All I am saying, the Flames did not cut ties with him when they found out about the allegations. They cut ties with him when the allegations were about to come public. There's a difference. And they certainly did not have to say it was mental health leave. Nothing stopped them from saying "Dube is away from the team. The Flames will not comment further."

Key word there being 'allegations'

You claim the Flames KNEW he was involved. You claim YOU knew. Back it up

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Woah. Wrong. 100% wrong. He was accused. He was accused in 2018 and a settlement was paid in 2022. This is the problem we have.

I understand the moral dilemma, but you seem to be fighting against the existence of due process. The team had to wait for a charge.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

You still haven't answered my question about if you feel this way why you would cheer for the Flames.

Again, it's a good question. A very good question. One I do ask myself. And again, I admit my fanhood is waning but I wonder if it would be if they were playing in the Cup finals.

I believe the difference between me and you is that I'm still a fan without lying to myself. Maybe that makes it worst. But I've stuck with them with Gilmour, Marchment, Bertuzzi. I know they don't give a #### as long as we're willing to pay (though I do note I am a former season ticket holder).

But, if you knew that they 'knew' or let's say intentionally did not want to 'know' if Dube was involved, would you still be a fan?

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I understand the moral dilemma, but you seem to be fighting against the existence of due process. The team had to wait for a charge.

To scratch him? To waive him? No.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Again, it's a good question. A very good question. One I do ask myself. And again, I admit my fanhood is waning but I wonder if it would be if they were playing in the Cup finals.

I believe the difference between me and you is that I'm still a fan without lying to myself. Maybe that makes it worst. But I've stuck with them with Gilmour, Marchment, Bertuzzi. I know they don't give a #### as long as we're willing to pay (though I do note I am a former season ticket holder).

But, if you knew that they 'knew' or let's say intentionally did not want to 'know' if Dube was involved, would you still be a fan?

Oh screw off. Don't tell me if I'm lying to myself or not.

I have dealt with employee situations where there are allegations and rumors of allegations. I understand how this stuff works.

For an organziation to take any action they must know and prove that the allegations are true. That's why there is a process for this stuff.

The anger towards the Flames is miss-placed. The people that did something wrong were those in the hotel room that night, and then Hockey Canada for covering it up.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Oilers bad for signing Kane.

Flames good for playing Dube.

Hockey culture only bad because of every other team!

I think it’s people treating the situations differently, not the teams.

Otherwise New Jersey and Philadelphia would be getting raked while Calgary gets a pass. And that isn’t happening even a little bit from what I can tell.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Oh screw off. Don't tell me if I'm lying to myself or not.

I have dealt with employee situations where there are allegations and rumors of allegations. I understand how this stuff works.

For an organziation to take any action they must know and prove that the allegations are true. That's why there is a process for this stuff.

The anger towards the Flames is miss-placed. The people that did something wrong were those in the hotel room that night, and then Hockey Canada for covering it up.

You don't think you're lying to yourself when Dube took a mental health leave the day before he was charged? Okay screw off too bud.

Kylington actually took a mental health leave and we didn't find out for a year.

The Flames didn't have to say anything but Dube was going away. They could have said "Dube is taking a leave from the team. Good riddance to bad rubbish" if they wanted. But apparently it's not okay to sign him if he is found not guilty? Hmm.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

To scratch him? To waive him? No.

Its not the teams place to judge a potential criminal action. That's the place of the police. So the team waits for an external investigation and charge. If a team feels that the presented evidence from that investigation is strong enough for them to act independently of the result, they have that option.

There is no Flames Investigation Unit. Once a charge was laid, they acted exactly as you (or any of us) wanted them to. They immediately cut ties.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Its not the teams place to judge a potential criminal action. That's the place of the police. So the team waits for an external investigation and charge. If a team feels that the presented evidence from that investigation is strong enough for them to act independently of the result, they have that option.

There is no Flames Investigation Unit. Once a charge was laid, they acted exactly as you (or any of us) wanted them to. They immediately cut ties.

Okay, completely fair, but then we go back to the original assertion about glass houses. If they are found not guilty and the Oiler (or whatever team) sign any of these guys, what's the big deal?

I'll be honest, I think the Oilers are piece of ####s for signing Kane, but what crimes has he been convicted of?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

You don't think you're lying to yourself when Dube took a mental health leave the day before he was charged? Okay screw off too bud.

Kylington actually took a mental health leave and we didn't find out for a year.

The Flames didn't have to say anything but Dube was going away. They could have said "Dube is taking a leave from the team. Good riddance to bad rubbish" if they wanted. But apparently it's not okay to sign him if he is found not guilty? Hmm.

I don't know enough to offer judgement but if the worse thing the Flames did was how they handled the social media post - whatever.

First, it's entirely possible that when Dube knew charges were coming, that he did suffer a mental crisis.

I don't know enough about what happened behind the scenes, and how the Flames were informed and by whom. But I also don't really care about it because relative to what happened in the hotel room that night - it's a nothing thing.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

You don't think you're lying to yourself when Dube took a mental health leave the day before he was charged? Okay screw off too bud.

Kylington actually took a mental health leave and we didn't find out for a year.

The Flames didn't have to say anything but Dube was going away. They could have said "Dube is taking a leave from the team. Good riddance to bad rubbish" if they wanted. But apparently it's not okay to sign him if he is found not guilty? Hmm.

If you go back, many,many posters thought the mental health statement was questionable or wrong. Not much of an argument there. That wasn’t your argument though. You said the Flames should have done something because they “knew”, well before that statement was made (which was almost certainly drafted with Dubé and his counsel)

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I don't know enough about what happened behind the scenes, and how the Flames were informed and by whom. But I also don't really care about it because relative to what happened in the hotel room that night - it's a nothing thing.

And I do care. I'm not suggesting the Flames are as bad as Dube, if the allegations are true, but I don't support the Flames handling of it. I think everyone should.