Israel declares war on Hamas

[Bagor]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1721951173882593712

https://twitter.com/user/status/1721867114661752863

[jayswin]

Wow, Israel is just stomping those people into the ground.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Bagor

https://twitter.com/user/status/1721951173882593712

https://twitter.com/user/status/1721867114661752863

So there have been documented cases of Hamas using schools, theme parks, and playgrounds, with children actively playing in them, as rocket launch sites and weapons depots.

What is the solution to stop a rocket attack when human shields are deliberately used? This feels like the Trolley Ethics problem.

[Bagor]

People of Palestine.

You're either a member of Hamas or a human shield.

Either way all deaths are justified.

[FlameOn]

US Congressman proposes bill to remove Qatar as a US ally unless it gives up the top 3 Hamas leaders, collectively worth $11B, that Qatar is currently sheltering. Various undated photos the Hamas leaders and family partying and living in luxury.

Interesting note is Has also received $380M on in UN aid last year. UN does not have Hamas listed as a terrorist organization.

https://www.skynews.com.au/world-new...0e320169c?amp=

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

US Congressman proposes bill to remove Qatar as a US ally unless it gives up the top 3 Hamas leaders, collectively worth $11B, that Qatar is currently sheltering. Various undated photos the Hamas leaders and family partying and living in luxury.

Interesting note is Has also received $380M on in UN aid last year. UN does not have Hamas listed as a terrorist organization.

https://www.skynews.com.au/world-new...0e320169c?amp=

Good for SkyNews for publishing this article. Not gonna happen though. US Military base in Qatar is too important and they know it.

[flylock shox]

Poking around various news sites today, I get the feeling we're coming to the end of the part that was entirely predictable after the October 7th attacks, and into the part where it's hard to foresee what exactly will happen next.



I think the most likely thing we'll see next are the humanitarian impacts - lack of food, water, medicine, electricity, fuel - will start to gain ground on the deaths/injuries caused by bombing and gunfire (even with the ground invasion of Gaza stepping up). Conflict in the West Bank will clearly continue to escalate. The global perception of Israel will probably erode rapidly from this point forward, including among traditionally allied populations like the US (and Canada to an extent) and there will increasingly be a political separation between the US and Israel as the former tries to rein in the latter to no avail. Antisemitism will almost certainly continue to increase and impact diaspora populations all over the world, as brutal images of dead and dying children continue to stream out of Gaza.



Beyond that the risk of a broader war remains, particularly if Israel moves for a long-term occupation of Gaza and continues to inhibit the provision of aid, and if casualties continue to escalate. We may also see quite a bit of civil strife within Israel itself as that population splits between its left and right factions, and as Netanyahu continues to assert himself and seek/grab power even as a huge portion of the population loathes him and questions remain unanswered about how October 7 was allowed to happen in the first place.



But it's hard to see anything less than at least several more weeks of death, destruction, and suffering coming. I think it will take some form of third party intervention to stop it - the US likely being best-placed in that regard (though even they seem to have lost Israel's ear). Hopefully at a minimum we see increasing amounts of aid getting through.



It's all depressing and tragic.

[Southside403]

https://youtu.be/gk7iWgCk14U?si=J4_EDG0WaXeXPCsa

American lady is hero

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Southside403

https://youtu.be/gk7iWgCk14U?si=J4_EDG0WaXeXPCsa

American lady is hero

Man, I just can't imagine. I can't understand how people can do this to others. Humans suck so bad. Yet heroes like her somehow still exist. The Palestinians seem doomed to a slow extermination.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by jeffman

But Ukrainians have been shelling civilians in DPR for 8 years

Was the Ukrainian military targeting Russian civilians with the goal of killing as many as possible?

Why are people blurring the distinctions between deliberately trying to kill as many civilians as possible as an end to itself, and civilians dying as a consequence of military operations aimed to remove an enemy threat?

Civilians die in modern warfare. All modern wars. If civilians being killed in military operations is murder, then war is murder.

Hamas is an ongoing threat to Israel. Its removal is a legitimate military objective - no country would allow a threat like to remain on its doorstep. There is no way to remove that threat without invading and occupying Gaza in a military operation. Lots of civilians are doomed to die in such an invasion.

Hamas brought this down on the people of Gaza, as surely as Hitler and Japan’s leader’s brought immense suffering down on their people. But just as there was no way the Allies would have halted operations in mid-1944 because the people of Germany and Japan has suffered enough, there’s no way Israel will stop its operations until the threat from Hamas is removed.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Man, I just can't imagine. I can't understand how people can do this to others. Humans suck so bad. Yet heroes like her somehow still exist. The Palestinians seem doomed to a slow extermination.

This was always the desire.

[zunie75]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Oh so 4 weeks after hundreds of your women and kids were brutalised and then murdered you think if you were an Israeli you would think it was your fault??

You, me and everyone else here would do exactly what Israel are doing, you would destroy Hamas with everything in your power and you wouldn't give a toss who you killed to get to them, that's the normal response to mass rape and execution of women and children, I'm not Jewish and I would kill Hamas.

Oh and Israel dont have to get over anything, they own the whole region, there isnt a single thing anyone can do to stop them, they can take what they like when they like, if you have any sympathy for Palestine what so ever you should convince them of that, their only hope is to surrender and either move or live like our indigenous population who's utter defeat you, just as much as me, take advantage of

I'm confused by this whole post. Are you saying that the civilian deaths don't matter as long as you are also killing Hamas? Any means justifies the end? Sounds a lot like a terrorists ideology to me.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by zunie75

I'm confused by this whole post. Are you saying that the civilian deaths don't matter as long as you are also killing Hamas? Any means justifies the end? Sounds a lot like a terrorists ideology to me.

Yeah, and what if there were some Hamas guys hiding in The Bow or The Dome Tower? Would AFC be cool with civilian collateral damage if Israel needed to bomb those to get at the Hamas guys, or when it's us is all of a sudden collateral damage less palatable?

I have to think at that point all the pro-Israeli government people here might be open to a more strategic/surgical operation.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by zunie75

I'm confused by this whole post. Are you saying that the civilian deaths don't matter as long as you are also killing Hamas? Any means justifies the end? Sounds a lot like a terrorists ideology to me.

Nobody has said that civilian deaths don't matter. Every one is a tragedy, that involves the death of someone's loved ones.

The issue is that Israel really has no choice at this point. If they don't invade, it signals to Hamas, and every similar group in the region, that it's open season on Israel's civilians. Israel is dealing with enemies that has no rules, no inhibitions, and treat every concession as a victory.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah, and what if there were some Hamas guys hiding in The Bow or The Dome Tower? Would AFC be cool with civilian collateral damage if Israel needed to bomb those to get at the Hamas guys, or when it's us is all of a sudden collateral damage less palatable?

I have to think at that point all the pro-Israeli government people here might be open to a more strategic/surgical operation.

This is not a strong analogy, though. Say, Tsuut’ina people get fed up with centuries of oppression one day and start firing rockets from under their brand new sports complex into Evergreen and the new settlements in Alpine Park killing 1,500 children, women, seniors and taking two hundred hostages. Having to wipe down that complex seems a bit more justified? Rational? Plausible? What’s the right word?

[zunie75]

Originally Posted by blankall

Nobody has said that civilian deaths don't matter. Every one is a tragedy, that involves the death of someone's loved ones.

The issue is that Israel really has no choice at this point. If they don't invade, it signals to Hamas, and every similar group in the region, that it's open season on Israel's civilians. Israel is dealing with enemies that has no rules, no inhibitions, and treat every concession as a victory.

But that is not really what AFCs post seems to be implying. Its one thing to do what needs to be done to get Hamas but also ensure limiting loss of civilian life. That has to be done. Other wise you literally are no better than the terrorists you claim to be after.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah, and what if there were some Hamas guys hiding in The Bow or The Dome Tower? Would AFC be cool with civilian collateral damage if Israel needed to bomb those to get at the Hamas guys, or when it's us is all of a sudden collateral damage less palatable?

I have to think at that point all the pro-Israeli government people here might be open to a more strategic/surgical operation.

The problem is that the "surgical strikes" are what got Israel to this point. This isn't the first time they've gone to war with Hamas. Every other time Israel has made some strikes, the international community has pressured Israel into a ceasefire, Hamas reloads, and the cycle repeats.

There's also no way to get to the leaders any other way. They are literally hiding in tunnels underneath civilian infrastructure.

And yes, any nation is going to look at collateral damage against their own people different than against their enemies. Nations have a duty to protect their own citizens.

[WCW Nitro]

More and more Israeli officials are now saying what was obvious, they are staying in Gaza for at the minimum a very long time. American officials and other Western governments seem to be very worried about a permanent displacement of many Palestinians.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by zunie75

But that is not really what AFCs post seems to be implying. Its one thing to do what needs to be done to get Hamas but also ensure limiting loss of civilian life. That has to be done. Other wise you literally are no better than the terrorists you claim to be after.

You may not think it's enough, but contrary to implications here, Israel isn't doing everything in their power to take Hamas in a way that 's most beneficial to them. That would have involved carpet bombing the Gaza Strip on day 1. There would be hundreds of thousands of dead Gazans instead of 10s of thousands. And before anyone asks if that's "right", with the way Hamas is set up in Gaza, it's not possible to take them out without some civilian losses.

It's a question of balance and whether Israel is doing enough to protect Gazans and accomplish military goals that will ensure the safety of their own citizens. I would agree that Israel could do more. Are they doing so little to protect Gazan lives that it amounts to genocide, I would say no.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

This is not a strong analogy, though. Say, Tsuut’ina people get fed up with centuries of oppression one day and start firing rockets from under their brand new sports complex into Evergreen and the new settlements in Alpine Park killing 1,500 children, women, seniors and taking two hundred hostages. Having to wipe down that complex seems a bit more justified? Rational? Plausible? What’s the right word?

But that would be ridiculous. Tsuut'ina have all the rights and freedoms you and I have, PLUS they have additional land on which we're not welcome. Additionally, we are going way out of our way to atone for the mistakes of our great great grandparents (honestly, it's above and beyond on our part).

If we boxed them into a crappy section of land, were stealing their homes today (not hundreds of years ago) and fencing them off from freedom I would expect them to lash out whenever and however they could. We don't treat first nations people as sub-human and we work hard to continually understand their issues, improve relations, understand their perspective and right past wrongs. Israelis have literally the opposite approach with Palestinians. They are the hugest a-holes ever to the Palestinians.