[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by LWcrowfoot

Don't think that's true. There were rumours about Hanifan being shipped for a while, due to the increase from ELC to 2nd contact. Similar rumours talked about Staal and Skinner being shipped out due to cost as well.

Lindholm is a different story. While rumours (Pierre Lebrun) suggest the Flames and Hurricanes had been talking trades for weeks leading up to the deal, the Canes had been trying to negotiate with Elias. It was only after those deals fell apart that the trade happened.

Obviously the trade is about cost control you don't move out two young key pieces easily. However they would've preferred to keep both and with Lindholm rumours suggest they went deep into negotiations.

I suppose they made an attempt to negotiate, but it seemed pretty clear considering how close the numbers for Lindholm were (according to the rumours) that they weren't really serious.

Note that Carolina has the lowest cap hit in the NHL. They're cheeeaaaap.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by LWcrowfoot

Moving Fox last summer was the correct move. However just because he's viewed as not a player we can sign doesn't mean he had no trade value or should be considered - by fans or Treliving - as a throw in.

Fox isn't a sure thing, few prospects are, but he has value and a true wild card in this deal.

I don't think anyone views him as a throw in
He had value and was used to get this deal done
By reports, the Canes wanted Sam. So I can see that Fox was used to complete the deal with Ferland in there instead of Sam
But just because the Flames saw risk in signing him doesn't mean they looked him as a "throw in".
He had value. And that was value was used. In this deal.

[LWcrowfoot]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I don't think anyone views him as a throw in
He had value and was used to get this deal done
By reports, the Canes wanted Sam. So I can see that Fox was used to complete the deal with Ferland in there instead of Sam
But just because the Flames saw risk in signing him doesn't mean they looked him as a "throw in".
He had value. And that was value was used. In this deal.

This is a comment from the previous page, it's not the first such comment I've seen here, on HFboards or reddit's r/calgaryflames. There are some, albeit not the majority, who view Fox as an un-signable throw in.

Fox had made it known to Calgary he was not signing with them. He had little value in a trade.

Lindholm and Hanifan have been massive additions to our roster so I'm not worried, but at the time of the deal it did appear Fox wasn't given much value.

[David Struch]

The way Treliving is building his roster, we could have the cap space for two more core players. (in the 7 million range)

I think Brad has the trading skills to do it again and add two additional players to this core.

[LWcrowfoot]

Originally Posted by David Struch

The way Treliving is building his roster, we could have the cap space for two more core players. (in the 7 million range)

I think Brad has the trading skills to do it again and add two additional players to this core.

Tkachuk is going to sign the biggest contract in Flames history this summer so we've got to keep that in mind. Treliving just has to stay away from UFA signings. Hard to suggest he's been anything but a failure when he comes to the ufa market.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Phagoof

Becoming known as a GM who fleeces other GM's isn't good. Tre is becoming that, at least in bigger trades.

Curious why you think it isn't good?

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by LWcrowfoot

Tkachuk is going to sign the biggest contract in Flames history this summer so we've got to keep that in mind. Treliving just has to stay away from UFA signings. Hard to suggest he's been anything but a failure when he comes to the ufa market.

Frolik, Hudler and Engelland were good UFAs.

He did have some misses though, Brouwer especially.

[Huntingwhale]

Even if Fox turns out to be a home-run NHL player one day, I wouldn't even care. The fact is, Fox doesn't even play in the NHL and the 2 players he was traded for are turning out to be impact NHL core players for the Flames right here, right now. Every game thus far they have had a positive effect. The Flames didn't need a D man who will be a top 4 guy a couple years down the road. They needed a shake-up during the off-season in order to help advance the present core.

While it's still early, it appears that trade has managed to turn around a franchise stuck in mediocrity for ages. If the Flames are division contenders and make a good playoff run, it's cant' be looked at anything but a great trade.

Even if Fox wins the Norris one day, it would still be a good trade from the Flames' end. The fact that Kylington, Andersson and Valimaki are playing the way they are just goes to solidify that it was a good trade.

[LWcrowfoot]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Frolik, Hudler and Engelland were good UFAs.

He did have some misses though, Brouwer especially.

Hudler was Feaster but yes those two for sure. Had forgotten Engelland was Brad's signing.

Troy Brouwer, Lance Bouma, Mason Raymond as buy-outs doesn't look good though. Michael Stone is good but expensive depth that was overkill after the Hamonic trade and Derek Ryan is all sorts of meh that basically replaces the Stajan contract.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by LWcrowfoot

Tkachuk is going to sign the biggest contract in Flames history this summer so we've got to keep that in mind. Treliving just has to stay away from UFA signings. Hard to suggest he's been anything but a failure when he comes to the ufa market.

Failure?

Yes Brouwer was a flop...no question and there have been other misses as well. Hiller, Raymond and some others. Happens to every team ever.

Frolik, Versteeg, Rittich, Engelland all just fine.

Jury is still out on Neal and to much lesser extent Ryan and Czarnik.

I would suggest BT is probably average in comparison to other GM's.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by LWcrowfoot

This is a little confusing. Treliving has never "fleeced" any trade because of single trade? Doesn't make sense. You do indeed need to look beyond one trade to get the full scope. And I'm a poster that doesn't buy into the whole Wizard thing.

Poorly worded on my part. And I hate the term fleecing.

I look at Treliving's trade record and i see a guy who got full value for auctioning off pending UFA's. Solid A there.

Prior to the Hurricanes trade though, I don't think he did great in trading for assets to play on the current club, often undervaluing draft picks and/or over valuing players he had been targeting IMO.

But as I said, the Hurricanes trade was complex and great for the Flames on multiple levels. He deserves credit for it. Still wouldn't call it a fleecing much less say he is somehow building a reputation for fleecing people.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

Disagree. What else was he gonna say publicly? I’m only gonna play for so and so or else I won’t sign? That’d be a major red flag for any team and he’s making it infinitely harder on himself to make the NHL. Behind closed doors he and his agent might try and dictate where he wants to go. No, I trust Tre tried to sign him and he balked.

Do you have the same skepticism for the comments by the GM who just traded the guy?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by LWcrowfoot

This is a comment from the previous page, it's not the first such comment I've seen here, on HFboards or reddit's r/calgaryflames. There are some, albeit not the majority, who view Fox as an un-signable throw in.


Lindholm and Hanifan have been massive additions to our roster so I'm not worried, but at the time of the deal it did appear Fox wasn't given much value.

According to who? Some fans?

Why are you giving that any weight at all?

Why would the Flames just "toss him in" or why would he not be given "much value".

What someone said on hfboards, reddit or here frankly has little connection to the realities of the deal.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Do you have the same skepticism for the comments by the GM who just traded the guy?

Not at all. I believe Tre wanted to sign Fox, I don’t believe Fox wanted to sign with the Flames. Pretty cut and dried to me.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Do you have the same skepticism for the comments by the GM who just traded the guy?

I think that is abundantly fair. So, at the end of the day we have a situation in which we don't know a good deal about Fox's intentions to sign with the Flames—one way or the other.

What we are left with is the value of the player. I think Fox is a terrific prospect with a pretty bright NHL future. I will say that his distinction as a NCAA prospect playing his third season, and the fact that he is racking up points in the historically weaker ECAC probably diminish his value as an asset somewhat. But even then, this is a top prospect from the organization, and this was part of the price to secure two players under the age of 24-years-old and still under contract control. One of which is now among the top forwards in Calgary, and the other who is a key component to the critical second defence pairing.

The cost was very high. But certainly worth it even if Fox turns out to be a great NHLer.

[LWcrowfoot]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

According to who? Some fans?

Why are you giving that any weight at all?

Why would the Flames just "toss him in" or why would he not be given "much value".

What someone said on hfboards, reddit or here frankly has little connection to the realities of the deal.

I know. We're in agreement. Some people suggested he's a throw in, and I was disagreeing with that and saying it shouldn't be viewed that way. I don't know why I'm giving that away weight, maybe because it's a discussion forum and I was replying to it.

As for Fox being viewed as "not much value" in the trade. Those thoughts are my own at the time of the trade. With some hindsight perhaps I've either overvalued Hamilton or Ferland and undervalued Lindholm. The deal seemed close as a 2v2, Fox seemed like a massive sweetener. Perhaps I'm wrong, that's a possibility too.

[sketchyt]

Originally Posted by the2bears

Curious why you think it isn't good?

Because it’s not good for the team he actually cheers for.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by LWcrowfoot

I know. We're in agreement. Some people suggested he's a throw in, and I was disagreeing with that and saying it shouldn't be viewed that way. I don't know why I'm giving that away weight, maybe because it's a discussion forum and I was replying to it.

As for Fox being viewed as "not much value" in the trade. Those thoughts are my own at the time of the trade. With some hindsight perhaps I've either overvalued Hamilton or Ferland and undervalued Lindholm. The deal seemed close as a 2v2, Fox seemed like a massive sweetener. Perhaps I'm wrong, that's a possibility too.

Ferland was overvalued by many in their evaluation of the trade. He's a good scorer when on his game, but he is also in the final year of his contract, after which he is a UFA. All the players who came to Calgary in the deal had more years of team control than all of the players who went the other way (including Fox, who can sign with any team he wants to after the end of the current season).

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Poorly worded on my part. And I hate the term fleecing.

I look at Treliving's trade record and i see a guy who got full value for auctioning off pending UFA's. Solid A there.

Prior to the Hurricanes trade though, I don't think he did great in trading for assets to play on the current club, often undervaluing draft picks and/or over valuing players he had been targeting IMO.

But as I said, the Hurricanes trade was complex and great for the Flames on multiple levels. He deserves credit for it. Still wouldn't call it a fleecing much less say he is somehow building a reputation for fleecing people.

If we extrapolate a few deals:

Out:

Curtis Glencross
Michael Ferland
Adam Fox
1st Round Draft Pick (Zach Senyshyn; though Barzal, Connor and Chabot were the next picks)
1st Round Draft Pick (Noah Dobson)
2nd Round Draft Pick (Jackob Forsbacka-Karlsson)
2nd Round Draft Pick (Ruslan Ishakov)
2nd Round Draft Pick (2019)
3rd Round Draft Pick (Adin Hill)

In:

Noah Hanifin
Elias Lindholm
Travis Hamonic
2nd Round Draft Pick (Oliver Kylington)
4th Round Draft Pick (2019)

So he's not a guy afraid to trade picks for sure things, that's for sure.

Would I equate this to a history of 'fleecings'? I don't think so. But it does show that he's been using assets to improve the team and not just take chances. Each deal has improved the team, and it's not like the future is being mortgaged either. Hanifin and Lindholm could be playing in the league as long as any of the players chosen with the picks we gave up.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by LWcrowfoot

I know. We're in agreement. Some people suggested he's a throw in, and I was disagreeing with that and saying it shouldn't be viewed that way. I don't know why I'm giving that away weight, maybe because it's a discussion forum and I was replying to it.

As for Fox being viewed as "not much value" in the trade. Those thoughts are my own at the time of the trade. With some hindsight perhaps I've either overvalued Hamilton or Ferland and undervalued Lindholm. The deal seemed close as a 2v2, Fox seemed like a massive sweetener. Perhaps I'm wrong, that's a possibility too.

Yeah it's a pretty complicated deal and if one looks at it just play for player I don't think it really is a complete picture.

I think additional key factors in the trade were

- Years of control remaining for the players (the Flames had the edge here)
- Whether the players were signed (Lindholm issue for the Canes)

- Fox's complicated situation with a high end prospect however some value degradation due to uncertainty of him signing



I think on paper it's an even deal. Near-term I give the edge to the Flames from the POV because they basically turned back the clock on their window somewhat. Their pieces are locked down, the Canes pieces aren't. Now if the Canes sign Fox and he ends up being a good or great player - it will swing it back to be more even

But even then from the Flames POV we can't assume they would have signed Fox, so the only thing is did they extract enough value out of the asset. And I think they did because the trade has been impactful and I don't think it happens without Fox in there