I like Jaimie's assault on Highgarden. Much like the first season they yadda yaddad the battle. Highgarden lost what was its most powerful lord who joined with Jaimie. They lost their whole future of the house when the sept blew up. It's not unrealistic for their army to be gone through defection. I don't think this is reverse engineering the plot but a straightforward read of what we saw on the screen.
I think Tyrian makes his plan clear of undermining Cersai's and Jaimie's love of her heritage forcing them to counter. He was out thought and Beutiful foreshadowed by the queen of thorns saying I am alive today because I haven't listened to clever men. She even implored Dany to use her dragons.
So I'm not with you on those to.
Euron -- Nothing about his plot makes sense.
Jon to get the zombie again nonsensical. It's really the unexplainable one that was solely done to move people around and isn't defendable.
The mistake they made was spending the budget HBO gave them on battles instead of episodes. The long drawn out fight sequences while cool have limited the time spent on things like travel and quick conversations that fill in the world.
The biggest thing for me lacking this season is consequence to actions. Jon had the dumbest idea and only a dragon that we knew was going to die died. Tormund should have died to have consequences. Sam should have contracted greyscale while curing Mormont. Greyworm should have died for Tyrions stupidity.
To me the theme of this show from the beginning is for the heros your best trait is your downfall and the Villians bring on their own demise through their actions. I think that's why I am enjoying the Arya/Sansa/Littlefinger plot.
The Following User Says Thank You to GGG For This Useful Post:
In all honesty finishing the books is going to be an order of magnitude more difficult than the show which ruthless cut back the extraneous story lines of the books.
But it's really obvious that without Martin's hand on the tiller, the show has really suffered in the most basic ways, plotting and story telling. They're lucky that this season sits atop 6 seasons of world and character building so that it mostly sticks together. However, it looks like only the most ardent/blind of fans are the ones sticking up for it. You know its bad when the most threadbare of arguments are being trotted out defending this season.
"You can't criticize a show for realism when it has dragons and zombies" is pretty much the worst argument. You can actually. The plotting, the characters decisions, what happens needs to be internally consistent. That's a basic of story telling. Previous versions of the show emphasized how distance was a key part of the story. The Wall was far away and therefore couldn't have been helped when the Wildlings attacked as one example. You can't use geography as a plot device in one season and then completely disregard it the next.
However, I'm less hung up on the timeline/geography stuff. Mine has more to do with just how the actual story doesn't make sense. How could Jamie have captured one of the great strongholds of Westeros in a day? Why didn't Olena see Cersei's attack coming? Why did Tyrion think it a good idea to attack Casterly Rock? Why does Jon Snow think it's a good idea to put his life in danger for the stupidest of plans to capture a wight when he's the King of the North and has to prepare his people for an existential battle? These are the things that bother me. It doesn't make any damn sense.
And yes, you can reverse engineer explanations for all these things. But the fact that you have to speaks to how spotty the storytelling is. You shouldn't need to do that. The plotting should unfold in a way that it all builds to the key moments.
I think it has less to do with Martin not having his hand the tiller and more to do with some poor production decisions by the show runners.
__________________ "It's a great day for hockey."
-'Badger' Bob Johnson (1931-1991)
"I see as much misery out of them moving to justify theirselves as them that set out to do harm." -Dr. Amos "Doc" Cochran
In all honesty finishing the books is going to be an order of magnitude more difficult than the show which ruthless cut back the extraneous story lines of the books.
But it's really obvious that without Martin's hand on the tiller, the show has really suffered in the most basic ways, plotting and story telling. They're lucky that this season sits atop 6 seasons of world and character building so that it mostly sticks together. However, it looks like only the most ardent/blind of fans are the ones sticking up for it. You know its bad when the most threadbare of arguments are being trotted out defending this season.
"You can't criticize a show for realism when it has dragons and zombies" is pretty much the worst argument. You can actually. The plotting, the characters decisions, what happens needs to be internally consistent. That's a basic of story telling. Previous versions of the show emphasized how distance was a key part of the story. The Wall was far away and therefore couldn't have been helped when the Wildlings attacked as one example. You can't use geography as a plot device in one season and then completely disregard it the next.
However, I'm less hung up on the timeline/geography stuff. Mine has more to do with just how the actual story doesn't make sense. How could Jamie have captured one of the great strongholds of Westeros in a day? Why didn't Olena see Cersei's attack coming? Why did Tyrion think it a good idea to attack Casterly Rock? Why does Jon Snow think it's a good idea to put his life in danger for the stupidest of plans to capture a wight when he's the King of the North and has to prepare his people for an existential battle? These are the things that bother me. It doesn't make any damn sense.
And yes, you can reverse engineer explanations for all these things. But the fact that you have to speaks to how spotty the storytelling is. You shouldn't need to do that. The plotting should unfold in a way that it all builds to the key moments.
One of the funniest quips I've read on the interweb lately, regarding the Dany/Jon budding relationship. Not sure where it came from originally, as I've read it on a couple sites.
"Is Daenerys going to get six inches of Snow?"
The Following User Says Thank You to manwiches For This Useful Post:
Even in that article it recognizes that Martin likely doesn't have a better way to end it and thus hasn't written the ending.
The inciteful part is that much like the show was able to fix book issues by virtue of going second the books will be able to fix show issues by going second.
Though I'm still willing to argue to the death the the characters are making the same foolish decisions that they have always made and are acting in character as opposed to the mythology built around them by fans.
Read an interview with one of the producers I believe that said from the beginning Martin told them the whole purpose of everything was to get Dany and Jon allied together (and likely more given Martins various talk about the Targaryen family marrying brothers and sisters and he seems to drop in Aunts and nephews in those discussions...). The problem I think they have had this season is they didn't have that final roadmap from Martin and it shows.
I've still very much enjoyed the shows though and have little issue with many of the issues others are having. I don't expect Arya and Sansa to act rationally as they are still young. I certainly don't expect them to act rationally with each other as for their entire lives before they were separated they, quite frankly, did not like or trust each other. They've now been separated and become completely different people. Maybe they didn't get along as youngsters but now even the sister they knew is gone. I would be shocked if there was any trust between them as there shouldn't be.
While I love the character of Arya she has proven she isn't the most politically adept. Sure she escaped death at the hands of the faceless man's minion but that wasn't because she out smarted her in a social sense..she outsmarted her in a battle/I'm better with a sword in the dark way. The reason she was in that situation though was because she could not become "no one" and, not only that, she was unable to even act like she could. She isn't particularly subtle in her motives or maneuverings.
One of the funniest quips I've read on the interweb lately, regarding the Dany/Jon budding relationship. Not sure where it came from originally, as I've read it on a couple sites.
"Is Daenerys going to get six inches of Snow?"
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Inglewood Jack For This Useful Post:
One of the funniest quips I've read on the interweb lately, regarding the Dany/Jon budding relationship. Not sure where it came from originally, as I've read it on a couple sites.
Yeah, I actually find it interesting, they're really strayed from typical character thus far in this season and I get the impression that this is because they're really trying to wrap this bitch up.
The idea that the tone of the show has changed because they've eclipsed GRRM's vision or direction is complete horse-hockey.
GRRM is a rambler and they're out of time for rambling, they've really got to fish or cut bait and get to the point.
The whining is funny though.
A few years ago the whining was: "Oooh....theres so much filler! That was a non-episode, nothing happened, they need to go faster, they need to do more! Wah!!"
And now "they're going too fast, they're losing reality, that wagon cant hold that much gold, wah!"
How times have changed.
For me the most interesting part is going to be how they really wrap this up. Will they do lip service to the fans and have an ending that we all like? Because I always go back to one of the lines that really stuck with me:
But as I recall one of the defining factors of the production of this show was that the writers/producers went to GRRM and basically guessed at his ending and he confirmed it, so its not as though his hand is completely absent in current proceedings and as such he should not be beyond fan ire.
__________________ The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a Fire Exit. - Mitch Hedberg
They have certainly lost some of the appeal of the show by getting to fan service-y.
As GGG mentioned, the show prided itself on not letting characters (especially main-mid characters) get away with poor decisions.
Obviously some characters have/and will get away with mistakes because of their centrality to the plotline, but that shouldnt excuse the lack of deaths this season.
I mean we have lost who? the Sand snakes, the Tarly's, Thoros, and a dragon.
I can see a few people getting wacked in the finale, but nothing too crazy.
its been leaked for about 6 months I believe, whole season was
I didn't read the leak, but Deadspin had an article about the leaked episode last week and said that what was int he leak from earlier this year had all been proven right
There's speculation that GRRM is not a big fan of where the show has taken the story and there will some notable differences between the show and the final books. I kind of hope that's the case. It will double the entertainment value out of the end of the series.
__________________
"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
Why didn't they just fly a dragon up there in the first place and snatch one in a day if this is their main focus now?
Also, where in the hell did the White Walkers get a pile of giant chains to pull the dead dragon out of the lake? All they have shown thus far is a shambling horde of corpses.
They've been carrying giant chain around with them the whole time? WTF.
