Alberta Politics Thread

[peter12]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Oh come on. The way oil companies have handled pipeline leaks, tanker spills, etc. in the past is precisely why people have hangups about pipelines.

In my 5+ years, and easily over 8000 hours of field experience, I can easily say that their hang-ups have a lot less to do with empiricism, and a lot more to do with propaganda.

Pipelines has become a soiled word as the result of a targeted crusade against the use of fossil fuels. It is very similar to how the word liberal was turned against the American left.

Energy transportation is extremely complicated. Many people do not understand this fact.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

There are people who think the oil sands (sorry, tar sands) are an egregious moral wrong and peril to humankind, and every effort should be made to shut them down. Nothing will appease those people, and it's folly to try.

But are they numerous and does anyone care what they think? Suzuki has been beating a powerful drum for more than a decade now and that basically had zero impact on the most recent oil boom in Alberta.

The BC Liberals and the environmentalist camps are essentially at war with each other over a variety of issues and yet the BC Liberals themselves aren't even on board with pipeline infrastructure through the province.

If a neighbouring provincial government that is also more than amenable to energy sector interests can't get on board with Alberta's energy sector plans, maybe it's time to stop blaming the useless and ineffective 'environmentalists' who haven't held sway in this province since Glen Clark was premier.

Originally Posted by peter12

Oil companies are not pipeline companies. How do more people not know the difference?

Poor public outreach and education campaigns by oil and pipelilne companies?

[peter12]

But are they numerous and does anyone care what they think? Suzuki has been beating a powerful drum for more than a decade now and that basically had zero impact on the most recent oil boom in Alberta.

I'm not a huge fan of David Suzuki, but in my professional dealings with the man, and his foundation, I would say that he has a great deal more integrity than the current crop of protesters. He also understands politics, and the need to make alliances across the ideological spectrum. He has just enough of the Old Left in him that he implicitly gets that the oil & gas industry is all that is left to prop up the economic futures of the lower-middle class in Canada.

Poor public outreach and education campaigns by oil and pipelilne companies?

Nah, willful ignorance of the public and demagoguery by energy industry opponents.

[peter12]

The BC Liberals and the environmentalist camps are essentially at war with each other over a variety of issues and yet the BC Liberals themselves aren't even on board with pipeline infrastructure through the province.

If a neighbouring provincial government that is also more than amenable to energy sector interests can't get on board with Alberta's energy sector plans, maybe it's time to stop blaming the useless and ineffective 'environmentalists' who haven't held sway in this province since Glen Clark was premier.

You are mainly just talking about Site C here.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Oh come on. The way oil companies have handled pipeline leaks, tanker spills, etc. in the past is precisely why people have hangups about pipelines.

Did you know child porn travels through the pipelines of the internet? Maybe we should shut down the internet, because child porn is waaaay worse than oilsands. Time to start protesting Shaw, Bell and Telus and shut down these evil organizations that allow the destruction of children. But that doesn't make any sense, now, does it?

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Oh come on. The way oil companies have handled pipeline leaks, tanker spills, etc. in the past is precisely why people have hangups about pipelines.

That's true, but it's mostly people's perceptions. They see something horrible happen like the Valdez, or the Enbridge Michigan spill, and that sticks in their minds but don't notice when the vast majority of oil and gas infrastructure functions properly. Being against pipelines and tankers for those reasons is like refusing to go on a cruise because of the Titanic.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

Oil companies are not pipeline companies. How do more people not know the difference?

You're really going to split hairs like that when I included other types of spills?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Did you know child porn travels through the pipelines of the internet? Maybe we should shut down the internet, because child porn is waaaay worse than oilsands. Time to start protesting Shaw, Bell and Telus and shut down these evil organizations that allow the destruction of children. But that doesn't make any sense, now, does it?

This is an absolutely terrible analogy.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

That's true, but it's mostly people's perceptions. They see something horrible happen like the Valdez, or the Enbridge Michigan spill, and that sticks in their minds but don't notice when the vast majority of oil and gas infrastructure functions properly. Being against pipelines and tankers for those reasons is like refusing to go on a cruise because of the Titanic.

I think the problem you have though is the PR from an industry that does have these things in its history but continues to lobby for reduced restrictions and regulations. The oil industry has handled the PR on spills and climate change about as well as tobacco companies handled lung cancer. I'm not arguing that the anti-pipeline crowd is being rational with their outrage, I'm arguing that I understand where it's coming from.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by rubecube

This is an absolutely terrible analogy.

It is beyond perfect.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by peter12

I'm not a huge fan of David Suzuki, but in my professional dealings with the man, and his foundation, I would say that he has a great deal more integrity than the current crop of protesters. He also understands politics, and the need to make alliances across the ideological spectrum. He has just enough of the Old Left in him that he implicitly gets that the oil & gas industry is all that is left to prop up the economic futures of the lower-middle class in Canada.

I am going to go ahead and fully disagree with you on this. David Suzuki has taken money from Tides. He is also on record as saying all Oil Sands must be left in the ground. He is also on record as saying those who support the Oil industry are similar to people who supported the Slave Trade.

I won't take time to cite quotes, but unless I am missing some green text the man is probably the exact opposite the one you describe above. He has morphed over the years from a pretty balanced guy to basically a cultist who fully endorses "ends justify the means" when it comes to his goals.

I've had too many discussions with a friend who works for his foundation. He likes bleeding heart naive life wanderers to work for him. He's become no different than the other garbage like Sierra Club out there.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by peter12

I'm not a huge fan of David Suzuki, but in my professional dealings with the man, and his foundation, I would say that he has a great deal more integrity than the current crop of protesters.

I've always thought he was a creepy old man and a hypocrite.

Made a lot of money off of his eco gig and milking it well with all his homes and (grand)children flying around the world with his speaking gigs. Telling people to have less children, be less material, donate to his foundations and pollute (drive and fly) less. His personal request for some pretty young ladies as "guards" as a requirement for speaking at a university was a little . . . strange . . . but whatever floats your boat I guess.

But your relative comparison might be correct.

[VladtheImpaler]

I hope Stalin runs in the next election - I think I am ready to return to basics.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

I hope Stalin runs in the next election - I think I am ready to return to basics.

We've already got the communists in now and bread lines just around the corner. Might as well.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

That's true, but it's mostly people's perceptions. They see something horrible happen like the Valdez, or the Enbridge Michigan spill, and that sticks in their minds but don't notice when the vast majority of oil and gas infrastructure functions properly. Being against pipelines and tankers for those reasons is like refusing to go on a cruise because of the Titanic.

It would actually be interesting to see what percentage of oil moving through pipelines in North America actually gets spilled in any given year. I don't know if anyone has actually ever done the calculation but I'm sure it is a minuscule portion of a percentage point.

A major pipeline like Energy East or Keystone XL or whatever is also significantly safer than smaller pipelines because of the safeguards that are built in to prevent significant spills and the constant monitoring of the flow rates at the command centers. Smaller pipelines don't have the same level of safeguard which is why spills can become fairly large and damaging and can go on for days or weeks without being noticed.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by chemgear

We've already got the communists in now and bread lines just around the corner. Might as well.

Well, yeah - we have the negative aspects of Communism, but sorely lack the positives - there are some major infrastructure projects to be built, and a lot of people crying out to be re-settled in the tundra....

[Flash Walken]

Oh good, communism hyperbole, just what this thread was missing.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

I hope Stalin runs in the next election - I think I am ready to return to basics.

Somehow I don't think that running in elections and the name Stalin are in the same orbit.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Oh good, communism hyperbole, just what this thread was missing.

You'll regret this little outburst when you are digging out the Arctic-Bow Canal. With a rusty shovel.

[para transit fellow]

I found this article fascinating regarding the amount of small spills


http://globalnews.ca/news/571494/int...ls-in-alberta/