Ring Road To Nowhere

[malcolmk14]

Originally Posted by Razor Ruddock

Native medicine was much farther advanced than European medicine. This is a straight up fact.

The white man didn't show up and clean house the way you guys are making out. The natives were a constant threat to settlers. This is why peace treaties were signed that are still in law today. I love how you're al like, "get over it, it happened three hundred years ago so it doesn't matter anymore".

Three hundred years is nothing. The treaties the white man signed are still in law and we are required by the courts to live up to our end of the bargain. If this means that a bunch of oil rich yuppies can't run a ring road through the little land they left for the natives to keep then so be it. Deal with it. You're so quick to point out that your ancestors came in and took over, but you're not so quick to accept the deals that they made in order to maintain peace.

Laws are revised all the time. This is one of those times where a revision needs to be considered.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Razor Ruddock

Native medicine was much farther advanced than European medicine. This is a straight up fact.

And your straight up opinion is completely irrelevant to the point that was made.

Originally Posted by Razor Ruddock

Blathering on about nothing significant

Nobody is saying they don't have the rights to reject a deal that would utilize their land. If you were capable of reading, you would understand that.

That does not address the arguments that:
1. they have no right to dictate to others what may or may not be done on land that is not theirs.

2. The reserve system is a massive breeding ground for poverty and suffering that will continue to exist until the native community itself chooses to move beyond it. A great deal of of the problems that exist on reserve lands are self inflicted.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

Laws are revised all the time. This is one of those times where a revision needs to be considered.

How many contracts have you agreed to rewrite that were in your favour?

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Razor Ruddock

Native medicine was much farther advanced than European medicine. This is a straight up fact.

And I wouldn't go to a doctor from the seventeenth century, regardless of race. This is a straight up face.

Originally Posted by Razor Ruddock

The white man didn't show up and clean house the way you guys are making out. The natives were a constant threat to settlers. This is why peace treaties were signed that are still in law today. I love how you're al like, "get over it, it happened three hundred years ago so it doesn't matter anymore".

They were a constant threat, this is true to a certain extent in Canada at least, it was my interpretation of history that our dealings with natives while not optimal (obviously) were still a hell of a lot better than they were in the States where there were Indian wars. That being said if they were a threat to the settlers, wouldn't that be just cause to clean house as it was put before?

Originally Posted by Razor Ruddock

Three hundred years is nothing. The treaties the white man signed are still in law and we are required by the courts to live up to our end of the bargain. If this means that a bunch of oil rich yuppies can't run a ring road through the little land they left for the natives to keep then so be it. Deal with it. You're so quick to point out that your ancestors came in and took over, but you're not so quick to accept the deals that they made in order to maintain peace.

Are you saying that the natives at the time signed the treaties out of some good will in order to maintain peace... but earlier you said they attacked settlers... and that the land that they received out of the treaties was land that "they were left with"... I am sorry but your statement is all over the place.

Frankly it is the reservations right to do whatever they want with their lands but it is also the cities right to do whatever they want as a contingency plan based upon the actions of the band and their rejecting the deal.

[malcolmk14]

Originally Posted by Shazam

How many contracts have you agreed to rewrite that were in your favour?

An argument can (and has, in this thread) be made that revising said laws would actually be beneficial to their development and contribution to society.

Native reserves are not necessarily beneficial to the people who live on them.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

An argument can (and has, in this thread) be made that revising said laws would actually be beneficial to their development and contribution to society.

Native reserves are not necessarily beneficial to the people who live on them.

...in our opinion. (Our as in I'm speaking as a 'white man'). Maybe they don't want that and maybe we signed an agreement without enough forethought.

But then again... the government has been known to break agreements hasn't it?

[TheU]

natives were a constant threat to the white man? wow this is getting really touchy

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

An argument can (and has, in this thread) be made that revising said laws would actually be beneficial to their development and contribution to society.

Native reserves are not necessarily beneficial to the people who live on them.

White man's burden, eh?

[Razor Ruddock]

Any way you look at this, the Natives got a raw deal. They never surrendered. They signed peace treaties which the white man is now trying to go back on. They lived up to their end of the bargain. We got all the oil we can drill out of it, the least we can do is provide uninterrupted access to the small parcels of land we afforded to them.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Razor Ruddock

Any way you look at this, the Natives got a raw deal. They never surrendered. They signed peace treaties which the white man is now trying to go back on. They lived up to their end of the bargain. We got all the oil we can drill out of it, the least we can do is provide uninterrupted access to the small parcels of land we afforded to them.

Actually, there probably is still quite a bit of oil under reserve lands. I know, it sucks.

[4X4]

What I don't get about the attitude of the Tsuu Tina, is the apparent will to stifle their own advancement. If you look at a map of the proposed road, and consider that what they'd essentially be doing is lopping off the swath for the road and then having a large parcel of land east of the road, adjacent to the city, it just seems like a really good way to justify setting up some businesses there that could compete with CoC. It really could be their next step toward doing something really good for the band.

I suppose the other side of the argument is along the lines of "if they develop that land, where does it stop?". Well, I believe that the answer to that is in their own council. If they did do something commercial with that land, they could theoretically fund the reserve in ways they've never been able to before. It just seems so ass-backward that the few on top are so "corrupt" that even they cant see the benefits of joining the 21st century.

I dunno. Maybe because real estate and land development is my blood type, I see it differently. But it baffles me that they choose to live in the shabby conditions they do, considering the resources they have. I take the shortcut down Bull Head Road every so often. I see their houses. I see how they live. It can't be by choice. It reminds me of a jewish ghetto in europe. They're segregated, poor living conditions, right beside a modern city. Why?

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by 4X4

What I don't get about the attitude of the Tsuu Tina, is the apparent will to stifle their own advancement. If you look at a map of the proposed road, and consider that what they'd essentially be doing is lopping off the swath for the road and then having a large parcel of land east of the road, adjacent to the city, it just seems like a really good way to justify setting up some businesses there that could compete with CoC. It really could be their next step toward doing something really good for the band.

I suppose the other side of the argument is along the lines of "if they develop that land, where does it stop?". Well, I believe that the answer to that is in their own council. If they did do something commercial with that land, they could theoretically fund the reserve in ways they've never been able to before. It just seems so ass-backward that the few on top are so "corrupt" that even they cant see the benefits of joining the 21st century.

I dunno. Maybe because real estate and land development is my blood type, I see it differently. But it baffles me that they choose to live in the shabby conditions they do, considering the resources they have. I take the shortcut down Bull Head Road every so often. I see their houses. I see how they live. It can't be by choice. It reminds me of a jewish ghetto in europe. They're segregated, poor living conditions, right beside a modern city. Why?

It really is quite simple in my mind. They don't want what "we" want. They don't give a crap about commercial enterprise, growth, economic superiority or materialism. They don't care.

Clearly they don't because of the way they voted.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

It really is quite simple in my mind. They don't want what "we" want. They don't give a crap about commercial enterprise, growth, economic superiority or materialism. They don't care.

Clearly they don't because of the way they voted.

If they don't want stuff like that, why do they drive cars and have natural gas heating? Obviously they do, or else they'd be riding horses and living in teepees.

I think that it has much less to do with what they want, and much more to do with a major distrust of us whiteys. Hopefully over a couple more generations, they'll realize that just because our great great grandfathers stole their land, doesn't mean that we are trying to do it. We live in a commerce based society, and nobody can just go and take anything anymore. Their land is worth hundreds of millions. All they need to do is use a bit of it here, to improve a bunch of it there.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by 4X4

If they don't want stuff like that, why do they drive cars and have natural gas heating? Obviously they do, or else they'd be riding horses and living in teepees.

I think that it has much less to do with what they want, and much more to do with a major distrust of us whiteys. Hopefully over a couple more generations, they'll realize that just because our great great grandfathers stole their land, doesn't mean that we are trying to do it. We live in a commerce based society, and nobody can just go and take anything anymore. Their land is worth hundreds of millions. All they need to do is use a bit of it here, to improve a bunch of it there.

It probably is major mistrust and it'd be tough to blame them based on all the prejudice evidenced in society and in this very thread (some good points on both sides however). I just don't believe money is the issue because of the amount the city threw at them to make this road.

I'm not saying their values are so skewed that they don't care about basic needs like heating and basic transportation, maybe they don't really care about improving their lives, maybe they're happy just the way things are.

I guess my problem with this thread are the judgements, the belief that they are like little children that need handling and that we know what's best for them.

[Razor Ruddock]

Why can't we just leave them alone to live their own lives instead of trying to run a highway through their front yard?

[V]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

It really is quite simple in my mind. They don't want what "we" want. They don't give a crap about commercial enterprise, growth, economic superiority or materialism. They don't care.

Clearly they don't because of the way they voted.

That doesn't explain the casino.

I'm with 4x4, this has more to do with mis-trust and sticking it to the man than anything else.

[V]

Originally Posted by Razor Ruddock

Why can't we just leave them alone to live their own lives instead of trying to run a highway through their front yard?

Interaction between neighbours should be expected.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Razor Ruddock

Why can't we just leave them alone to live their own lives instead of trying to run a highway through their front yard?

Because that highway was needed for a city of 800K, it is overdue in a city of 1.1M, and would create a cluster-fata if it wasn't there for a city of 1.5-2M people.

And they cannot now say "it's not our fault that Calgary has gotten so big." True- it isn't their fault. But this latest discussion started because they want access to that big city, and they want the dollars from the big city to come onto their reserve.

It just strikes me as wanting it both ways- they don't want the highway through their land (ok- that is their right); but in doing so they cannot now dictate how we build it beside their land.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Razor Ruddock

Why can't we just leave them alone to live their own lives instead of trying to run a highway through their front yard?

But they're not running a highway through their front yard. It is in our yard.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Razor Ruddock

Why can't we just leave them alone to live their own lives instead of trying to run a highway through their front yard?

Why are you so touchy about this? Are you Tsuu Tina?

The reason why the CoC and The Tsuu Tina have been in negotiations about this for so long is because it works for both parties involved. Generally speaking, when trying to solve a problem, you look for the best solution. The best solution to Calgary's road woes (besides foresight) is this road. They are our neighbour. Sound perfectly logical that CoC would enter negotiations with them.

What's the problem? We're not trying to railroad them. Alot of money and compensation was offered. They screwed us around for awhile and ultimately declined. Now we've moved on. The discussion here is why they declined.