[PGT] Flames lose 3-1 to the Rangers

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

All the people talking about attendance.

3 Canadian teams came in the bottom of 5 of lowest attendance last night. It is not a Flames issue.

I was listening to a podcast talking about spending and Americans are still spending on entertainment. They are spending a lot and are on track to have one of the busier Christmas seasons.

Its the opposite in Canada.

Don't think people are realizing how bad it is for people right now, it's not because of a poor product.

Seems like a lot of people are making the logical choice of feeding themselves and heating their homes.

Jets had record low attendance last night of just 11,136 to see the Jets play the Blues. I do believe fan apathy has set in both Calgary and Winnipeg but inflation is a likely culprit as well.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by tony-soprano

So..Darryl wasn’t the problem?

Probably. He also clearly was not the solution.

[GUnit]

That was awful to watch, I don't think seats will get filled with that on ice product.

Something has to give you can only go though so many coaches

[Classic_Sniper]

Wanted to give this team a couple weeks before formulating an opinion on them and based on what we've seen 2 weeks in, it already looks like a disaster on the ice and off the ice. The lack of goals, the defensive lapses, the ugly losses, all the player quotes, the low attendance, the fan apathy, this place. It's as bad as we've seen in a while and it really shouldn't be a surprise either. What else did management expect when all you did was trade your biggest one shot scoring threat and Lindholm's best line-mate coupled with an already thin lineup devoid of skill.

All of last year, they saw how badly this team struggled to finish, so then add, don't subtract. What kind of plan did they even have in place going into the season. If they thought this was all just a coaching problem, then they're as foolish as the fans are and should be sitting right there in the stands with them. Why did they think this team would be better? A different coach doesn't change how the other team defends you which is exactly why I didn't anticipate any upticks in Huberdeau's game or Kadri's game. If anything, their performances to date are even worse than even what I expected.

This is basically the same story as last season with just with a different coach. They'll win some, they'll lose some, they still can't finish, goaltending hasn't changed, PP doesn't look any better, PK is still good, their analytics are great and they'll still find a way to miss the playoffs. Also good to see Treliving finally getting the much needed flak he's been getting in here. I was on that boat years ago and now it looks like he's finally getting the fair criticism he deserves. The coaches bore the majority of his brunt for way too long.

[Jore]

It's sad to see apathy wash over the fanbase. If ownership and management had an ounce of foresight and planning we could have responded to the most obvious rebuild conditions professional sports have ever seen by loading up with a Cooley-tier piece in 2022 and the deepest draft in decades in 2023.

Instead, we had to remain "competitive" and gun for 16th overall all costs with the aging Frankenteam we see today.

Ironically, a youth-fueled and hungry team would be far more marketable than the dross on the ice today they are somehow trying to lock down to long-term contracts.

[Mr.Coffee]

Deciding to “remain competitive” might just ironically make this team bad enough to compete for a top end pick.

I say they stay the course. They have a good shot at being pretty bad this year honestly. Load up icetime for Kadri to float around and Huberdeau to spinorama pass to nobody and we might just get that coveted pick we all want.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Wanted to give this team a couple weeks before formulating an opinion on them and based on what we've seen 2 weeks in, it already looks like a disaster on the ice and off the ice. The lack of goals, the defensive lapses, the ugly losses, all the player quotes, the low attendance, the fan apathy, this place. It's as bad as we've seen in a while and it really shouldn't be a surprise either. What else did management expect when all you did was trade your biggest one shot scoring threat and Lindholm's best line-mate coupled with an already thin lineup devoid of skill.

All of last year, they saw how badly this team struggled to finish, so then add, don't subtract. What kind of plan did they even have in place going into the season. If they thought this was all just a coaching problem, then they're as foolish as the fans are and should be sitting right there in the stands with them. Why did they think this team would be better? A different coach doesn't change how the other team defends you which is exactly why I didn't anticipate any upticks in Huberdeau's game or Kadri's game. If anything, their performances to date are even worse than even what I expected.

This is basically the same story as last season with just with a different coach. They'll win some, they'll lose some, they still can't finish, goaltending hasn't changed, PP doesn't look any better, PK is still good, their analytics are great and they'll still find a way to miss the playoffs. Also good to see Treliving finally getting the much needed flak he's been getting in here. I was on that boat years ago and now it looks like he's finally getting the fair criticism he deserves. The coaches bore the majority of his brunt for way too long.

Maybe Conroy has a plan. If he had kept or added more scoring maybe we are in the middle of the pack. If it appears coaching can make this team work then he might add to it.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Saqe

I'm thinking about how Huberdeau and became a PPG+ player in Florida and there's one common thread at least I can think off. It happened under two coaches who both ran offensive minded systems. First one was Bob Boughner who was trash as a HC but ran a firewagon style of game, Florida was top 5 team in scoring and bottom 5 in goals against under him. Then Quenneville came and say what you like about his off ice stuff, he was an absolutely incredible HC who elevated everyone's game. The first year was a write off because he didn't like the personel and they didn't fit his system. But then the next year the Panthers still were a high scoring team but now also became a top 10 team in goals against.

So Huberdeau became a PPG player under offensive systems that either were firewagon or allowed for creativity and played to the strengths of the players. That's probably something Huberdeau needs, obviously there are clear chemistry issues now too and his confidence is gone. But Sutter ran a very defensive minded system and with Huska, the other problems seem to have compounded.

Agree with most of what you're saying, but I think it'd be very difficult for this team to adopt a firewagon brand of hockey given that the current roster construction.

Management for years have built a line up that can check for their chances, every coach Treliving hired has uttered this phrase. So I don't think this roster is even built to be successful playing that brand of hockey. That's why the decision to trade for Huberdeau and re-sign him made no sense. It's partly why he's had such a hard time finding chemistry with anyone because they all play such clashing styles in comparison.

I've wondered in the past if the pro scouting staff knew what they were doing. But after hearing John Bean and Don Maloney speak, this organization is run by the wrong people who don't know squat about the game. If someone like me could see that Huberdeau was doomed to fail here, then surely they had to have had some clue.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Deciding to “remain competitive” might just ironically make this team bad enough to compete for a top end pick.

I say they stay the course. They have a good shot at being pretty bad this year honestly. Load up icetime for Kadri to float around and Huberdeau to spinorama pass to nobody and we might just get that coveted pick we all want.

Or we might get that pick next year and send it right to Montreal, just so Brad could screw us over one last time from beyond the void.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Maybe Conroy has a plan. If he had kept or added more scoring maybe we are in the middle of the pack. If it appears coaching can make this team work then he might add to it.

Conroy could add & add & add some more, spend all the money and picks he wanted, but there’s nothing he could do they would transform this team into a contender IMO.

This team doesn’t have the right core in place to be an upper echelon team, that’s their biggest problem. They have so many good complimentary pieces, but nobody that stirs the drink. The only way we’re going to be able to find that guy is through the draft because no GM likes giving these core pieces away.

Even then, we’re probably not going to find that core piece by drafting 14th every year like we probably will for the next 8 years.

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Or we might get that pick next year and send it right to Montreal, just so Brad could screw us over one last time from beyond the void.

Don't be a meanie about Brad now he has feelings.

[Jore]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Deciding to “remain competitive” might just ironically make this team bad enough to compete for a top end pick.

I say they stay the course. They have a good shot at being pretty bad this year honestly. Load up icetime for Kadri to float around and Huberdeau to spinorama pass to nobody and we might just get that coveted pick we all want.

I think percentages will probably revert and the team will pick up enough points to stay out of the top 10, especially during garbage time (a Flames specialty), and especially if they keep Lindholm and Hanifin.



But even if they did fluke their way to a top pick, they're still hamstrung by the huge contracts they handed out to misfit players. Instead of being ready to add to their young core, at best we'll have a few blue piece prospects held back by cap anchors for the next 7 years. And for what? 60 close regular season games in 2022-2023?

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Agree with most of what you're saying, but I think it'd be very difficult for this team to adopt a firewagon brand of hockey given that the current roster construction.

Management for years have built a line up that can check for their chances, every coach Treliving hired has uttered this phrase. So I don't think this roster is even built to be successful playing that brand of hockey. That's why the decision to trade for Huberdeau and re-sign him made no sense. It's partly why he's had such a hard time finding chemistry with anyone because they all play such clashing styles in comparison.

I've wondered in the past if the pro scouting staff knew what they were doing. But after hearing John Bean and Don Maloney speak, this organization is run by the wrong people who don't know squat about the game. If someone like me could see that Huberdeau was doomed to fail here, then surely they had to have had some clue.

I don't think they can play firewagon hockey either. But it's just an observation what made Huberdeau a PPG+ player in Florida, or at least a big contributor to that I'd argue. Now there are other factors in play too.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I agree, I think Huberdeau was trying last season. It's not an attitude thing with him. He is just not as good as people thought. He is a one-trick pony that needs everything to align perfectly in order to be productive. That hasn't happened yet and it may never given that he isn't going to be getting younger.

The Flames really need to figure this out. Eight years of this could be a franchise killer.

It’s exactly what I saw even in his dominant Florida games. Huberdeau isn’t really an offensive driver as one would expect. He’s more of an opportunist, in a more offensive oriented game, he can use his vision and deft passing to take advantage of other team’s mistakes or make slick plays with open ice, i.e. his patented spinning pass that springs his teammates on a breakaway.

But the other team has to be sucked into playing run & gun hockey. This is not the typical hockey we see in the Western conference where teams play a more conservative style, put more emphasis on stout defense, playing heavy, checking hard and being connected through the middle of the ice.

Personally, I think everyone has it wrong when they blame his teammates or the system for not accepting his so called creative passes and etc. People should givr more credit to the opposition’s strategy on defending him. They know that if they put pressure on him or hurry him much like a QB in football, that he’ll be rushed into making bad passes and turnovers.

I don’t think that he’s forgotten how to play necessarily. It’s closer to “we’ve taken away what use to work for you” and now the onus is on Huberdeau to evolve his game and use what the defense gives you into offense. It’s not a coaching thing, it never was.

Huska or Sutter can’t tell the opposition’s skaters to just lay down so Huberdeau can walk around them and make plays, of course not, they’re trying to make it hard for him, that’s their job.

[CroCop]

Wasn’t even mad they lost last night. Crazy to think things are so bleak that hoping for loses in Oct could be the best thing for this Franchise.

[dino7c]

I think the players not wanting to play in Canada and leaving or having to be paid more to stay is sticking in a lot of craws

Like what's the point...you draft and develop a player and then they demand a trade. Or you draft a star dman and he waits it out until he can go to NY. Why do I want to pay $200 a seat for that.

Obviously economy too

[Goriders]

Watched the full game on PVR.

I didn’t think it was that lopsided. I though Markstrom played well minus the 3rd goal. They put in some good effort.

It is super painful watching the Flames try to score goals. That’s definitely the same as last year.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I think the players not wanting to play in Canada and leaving or having to be paid more to stay is sticking in a lot of craws

Like what's the point...you draft and develop a player and then they demand a trade. Or you draft a star dman and he waits it out until he can go to NY. Why do I want to pay $200 a seat for that.

Obviously economy too

Agreed. They do need to consider some kind of equalization at least with respect to taxation such that the monetary incentive for different jurisdictions is removed. I think it can be done but have no faith the NHL would ever do that.

Personally I think the NHL is slightly past the economic threshold that fans are willing to pay for the product. When you weaken the product, make it more expensive and then clearly manipulate outcomes, plus have a ####ty tv network running your product, then also a bad app… and on and on and on… wait. Why do I do this to myself again?

[dino7c]

If the league wants to cater the Arizona's and Florida's of the world they shouldn't be crying when their revenue in actual hockey markets starts to dry up

Edmonton will be there too...they have the generational players, for now. Their team still isn't anywhere near good enough. When they have another team of rando cast offs from other teams they will be seeing 11000 seat crowds too. This has all already happened in the 90s.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Watched the full game on PVR.

I didn’t think it was that lopsided. I though Markstrom played well minus the 3rd goal. They put in some good effort.

It is super painful watching the Flames try to score goals. That’s definitely the same as last year.

It was an even game...Flames were slightly better 5 on 5 even. Their goalie made actual ridiculous saves this time not just Flames shooting at crests.

The outcry is from losing the game combined with all the other losses. 2 wins in 7 games. It was a fine game against a top team, could have gone either way but at some point it will have to go the Flames way.

Honestly that effort would beat a lot of teams, problem is the lesser teams often get a lesser effort.