[GDT] Flames at Canucks 8pmMDT - SNTV/SN960

[Paulie Walnuts]

The game was boring because that's how Vancouver wants to play.

When Tocchet came in last year he talked about the game having to much skill and wanting to eliminate that and win 2-1.

Maybe they let off yesterday not wanting to get injured but I saw battle from some guys but Lindholm was very disappointing especially for a guy who wants to be paid.

He almost flubbed our goal. Huberdeau makes an amazing pass and he's standing still and not moving to get in position to accept it. Thankfully Weegar was coming down and took the pass properly.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think it's fair going into the season to be concerned about the team's offensive creativity ... that was a concern last year, and it certainly could be this year.

Thought they looked good in the first half of the game mostly, but then Vancouver took it away and there wasn't much push back.

I'm never going to be the "see ... Markstrom sucks" or "see the Flames powerplay is brutal" after a preseason game because that's just a silly over reaction.

But level headed concern for a team that never got on the same page last year, and may not this year is certainly understandable.

Oesterle is a concern ... that's two straight games where I felt he wasn't making solid reads.

I thought Markstrom was good. Didn't love the first goal but he was solid the rest of the way and only got beat on breakaways.

Still not seeing a lot of chemistry in the top line ... that has to change.

The fourth line isn't working for me ... they should be piss and vinegar with youth and speed given the build, but they don't move the puck very well. Shame Pelletier isn't available.

Lindholm worries me ... I think he's a great hockey player, but a complimentary piece, as he doesn't seem to drive things. Worried to pay him as a primary piece, but then I guess with salaries going up $8.5M (as an example) is a secondary piece.

Honestly think the issue on the top line is Lindholm. Get Huberdeau a better winger and they can carry Lindholm being a secondary piece but yeah at this point I'm not excited about paying him.

Oesterle is bad he needs to be replaced his reads are awful and slow.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

I stand by my comment that Vladar should be waived. Who's gonna pay 4.4m over the next 2 seasons for a below replacement backup goalie? Hopefully not us LOL.

We are, since we're on the hook for it. Where's the Percentage of Cap thread? Ladies and gentlemen, do not spend money on goaltenders.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

When Tocchet came in last year he talked about the game having to much skill and wanting to eliminate that and win 2-1.

Orly

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Honestly think the issue on the top line is Lindholm. Get Huberdeau a better winger and they can carry Lindholm being a secondary piece but yeah at this point I'm not excited about paying him.

Oesterle is bad he needs to be replaced his reads are awful and slow.

Let's get Huberdeau a winger to play with in exchange for...Steven Lorentz and a 5th. And take on $2 million in salary.

Sorry, no. Play with Coronato for free.

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by butterfly

We are, since we're on the hook for it. Where's the Percentage of Cap thread? Ladies and gentlemen, do not spend money on goaltenders.

Hope would be that he gets claimed.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Hope would be that he gets claimed.

Would you claim? There are dozens of AHL goalies longing for a league minimum contract.

[Bingo]

Dan Vladar is a very good backup goaltender that has aspirations (and by Serivelli comments lately a league view) that he can be a starter.

If they think Wolf needs to play soon they can certainly waive him.

But to call him replacement level is just silliness.

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You don't see that as over the top?

Just silly ...

Well obviously I would trade him for a pick if one was available. However he does have negative value IMO. Highly doubt the rumors of him being valued at a 2nd rounder. Of course Reto Berra and BSD each got a 2nd at the deadline....but I don't want wolf in the AHL til February. Just a dumb situation to have the best goalie prospect in the world log-jammed behind an abysmal starter and below average backup goalie.

[D as in David]

For a team whose coach regularly emphasizes not giving up the puck at the blue lines, this team has given up the puck a LOT at the blue lines - during the pre-season. I hope they nail that down soon.

[Savvy27]

I decided to watch this game this morning knowing the result and some of the commentary to really focus on some of the players:

Overall thoughts:

Flames dominated the first period. The goal against on the first shot sucks so much because they played great otherwise and were unlucky to not have at least two goals for, given the Dube post and Weegar missing the wide open net after a good move. Penalties destroyed the flow of the second period and the Canucks finished their chances while the Flames didn't. 3rd period was brutal. Flames couldn't make any plays to get out of their zone. A bit was vererans just playing half intensity to avoid injury and a bit was the Canucks executing a patient forecheck with the lead.

Kadri 4/5 - best player on the ice for either team in the first period. Physical plays, scored on a scramble, and he made a few cuts to the middle of the ice that turned offensive possession into a threatening play. Crushing hit in the 2nd and some more good play with the puck. He mailed in the third period a bit, but was otherwise the best forward for the Flames. Really liked his game in the first two.

Ruzicka - 2/5 mixed bag in the first. His first two plays with the pucks were soft dumps at the offensive Blueline with no pursuit, so basically giveaways. More positively he won an offensive draw clean which lead to a good shot from the point and he dove to keep a play alive on the PP. An atrocious giveaway at his own Blueline in the second that led to a big chance against. He won't go into board battles with intensity... it's frustrating because it is so obvious what he needs to do to be way more effective but not in his nature I guess.

Huberdeau - 3/5 really, really good in the first. Made numerous high skill passes and he was forechecking very well. He looks a lot slicker with the puck after last year when he lost it all the time. Gave the puck away on the third goal by throwing it to the middle of the ice in his own zone. Lousy third period that looked like last season. No chemistry at all with Mang and not a ton with Lindholm either.

Oesterle - 1/5 not thrilled with his first. He had at least four giveaways in the first alone and two were unforced. I don't like his game defensively either. He has a poor sense of where to put pucks for his teammates, I find when he does area passes or dump ins, the Flames have no real chance to win the pucks back. He should not be ahead of Gilbert on the depth chart, imo. He isn't as good defensively and he doesn't play an offensive role. Awful rush defence on the Canucks second goal, very concerning.

Markstrom - 4/5 first shot goal, yet again. He did make some good saves but he was dropping pucks consistently and got a bit lucky on one where the puck was cleared. Moved very well in the second period, stopping some one timers. Really liked how he moved the puck all game. Overall a pretty good game from him. Goals 2 and 3 were extremely good opportunities for the Canucks and the third one especially was a pretty perfect bounce.

Schwindt - 2/5 uneven period for the whole fourth line. One shift with great pressure and one where they were hemmed in and nobody could make a play. I don't buy the thinking that Schwindt should be ahead of Zary due to play style. He doesn't accomplish anything with the puck, ever. Duehr looked all alone out there and that is going to be a trash fourth line if they stick with it. Pretty good on pk.

Mangiapane - 2/5 please give up on the Mangiapane as a first liner dream. He is really good at what he does with the Backlund line, but he's not clicking with Lindholm and Huberdeau. He's barely noticeable.

Coronato - 3/5 really like his game. He attacks with speed and has a shooting mentality that is sorely needed. He was late recognizing a passing lane that would have sent Sharangovich in alone, but overall a good first.

Still liking his game in the second but having some rookie moments. Got crushed while looking back for a pass that led to a Backlund penalty and threw a couple of long shots towards the net that were really just turnovers. His effectiveness went downhill throughout the game... could be due to the big hit in the second and wanting to be a bit conservative after making the team essentially.

Sharangovich - 3/5 I still like his game. He's confident with the puck. I don't love him on the Backlund line... I'd rather see Coleman there. He's a shooter and until they get a better option, he should play with Huberdeau I think.

Hunt - 2/5 is keeping it very simple but I don't quite know what he is doing to stay in the mix. Really dumb penalty after the Canucks second goal which put them very much on their heels. He made a hell of a play to the net in the first but he also lost a few physical battles and failed to get pucks out. Like Schwindt, he sees to be getting a chance based on style of play (grinder) but he's not very big and he doesn't make plays, so all they will get is a guy who will play even at best.

Lines
Huberdeau Lindholm Mangiapane - hate it, never again
Ruzicka Kadri Dube - not bad, good shifts
Sharangovich Backlund Coronato - don't like it. Just keep the Mangiapane Backlund Coleman line together and start from there... this tinkering is just as useless as last season.
Hunt Schwindt Duehr - bad... Duehr is the only NHL level player and he can't get anything done with these replacement level guys.

Weegar Andersson - I like it. Dynamic.
Hanifin Tanev - I like it, though they were mediocre in this one
Zadorov Oesterle - definitely do not Zadorov to be the D who has to cover for Oesterle's turnovers... play Oesterle with Tanev if you insist on having him on the team

D Zone - from what I can tell, they have moved to a box plus one zone defence, which is common at other levels. The difference seems to be that the center is designated as the low forward and when the puck carrier skates the puck from high to low, the defender switches with the C as they leave his zone of responsibility instead of sticking with him man to man. I'm pretty about how many switches the players will need to do with how teams use scissors and high cycles.

I remember the man-to-man D zone gaining popularity after the Finns used it in the 2016 Olympics and the the World Cup with a lot of success. This was a response to the high cycle becoming more prominent. It seems that the C needs to be the one to get up high when a high cycle happens now, which I think is very hard to if there is quick puck movement. I'm a bit unconvinced by the decision to switch to zone. Obviously Huska is a smart coach so there are likely details to compensate that I'm not reading this early on. Hopefully they figure it out well.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Well obviously I would trade him for a pick if one was available. However he does have negative value IMO. Highly doubt the rumors of him being valued at a 2nd rounder. Of course Reto Berra and BSD each got a 2nd at the deadline....but I don't want wolf in the AHL til February. Just a dumb situation to have the best goalie prospect in the world log-jammed behind an abysmal starter and below average backup goalie.

This in a nut shell is whey things spiral around here.

They had a tough year for sure, trying to hide that would be foolish. I hope a new system and a good off season changes that.

But Markstrom was a vezina finalist the year before and Vladar has value as an up and coming potential starter.

Voicing concerns that they don't rebound from last year is more than valid, but the baby with the bathwater hyperbole in "replacement level" and "abysmal" just create a spiral.

[butterfly]

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Dan Vladar is a very good backup goaltender that has aspirations (and by Serivelli comments lately a league view) that he can be a starter.

If they think Wolf needs to play soon they can certainly waive him.

But to call him replacement level is just silliness.

Isn't being 56th out of 62 in goals saved above expected per 60 minutes pretty much replacement level? And isn't being 56th out of 62 in GAA above expected per 60 minutes pretty much replacement level? 52nd in wins above replacement? Definitely not "very good backup" level performance. Neither is a career 89.9%.
It's even more concerning because his play declined throughout the year and he has looked even worse in the preseason. Most of the league's starters became starts at or before the age of 25. Vladar is 26.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Isn't being 56th out of 62 in goals saved above expected per 60 minutes pretty much replacement level? And isn't being 56th out of 62 in GAA above expected per 60 minutes pretty much replacement level? 52nd in wins above replacement? Definitely not "very good backup" level performance. Neither is a career 89.9%.
It's even more concerning because his play declined throughout the year and he has looked even worse in the preseason. Most of the league's starters became starts at or before the age of 25. Vladar is 26.

A guy that is an independent observer who talks to execs and media across the league has him at a 2nd round pick in return.

So many see last year as an aberration which makes him above replacement level yes.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by butterfly

LOL, I know where Bobrovsky is on here, but other than that I have no idea what to take from this. You ok?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

A guy that is an independent observer who talks to execs and media across the league has him at a 2nd round pick in return.

So many see last year as an aberration which makes him above replacement level yes.

I'm skeptical that Vladar returns a second. IMO the jury is still out as to whether he is a capable NHL back up. In essentially two NHL seasons, he looked to be a solid backup one year and he was below average the second year. And in both seasons, his GSAA was negative.

If he could return a second IMO he would be gone. Now if he has an acceptable start to the season and some team's goaltending situation deteriorates, his value increases for sure.

But just IMO he is still a valid question mark. Replacement level sounds incendiary but if you're a backup goalie who has yet to fully establish yourself, then you're not all that far from replacement level. Lots of goalies probably fit into that category. I certainly don't see anyone rushing to sign him to an extension right now, for example.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Just the stupid over the top #### like freaking out about the preseason...where the team was 4-3-1 anyway not 0-8

"Markstom is done for his career"
"tear up the Lindholm contract he aint it"
"Dube playing his way off the team"
"team is done"

all said tonight, because of a road preseason loss with guys going at about 50% on both sides

"OMG they sent Wolf down! they should have lost Vladar for nothing on waivers that would have been way smrter"

no wonder nobody wants to play here, fans are pretty harsh on players

Geez you are way overstating how hard people are on this team. I don't know if those are actual quotes ()even though you put quotation marks around them), but in any case Flame players are treated exceptionally well by media and fans, Rarely booed, treated well in public, little to no hard questions. This is simply not a tough market for a pro athlete at all.

I'm pretty tired of the need to make excuses for the organization. "No one wants to play here". It's a cap league, plenty of people want to play here. Build a great culture and guess what, it might be even better.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I think the backup up is the least of our worries if we can't figure out better line combinations.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I'm skeptical that Vladar returns a second. IMO the jury is still out as to whether he is a capable NHL back up. In essentially two NHL seasons, he looked to be a solid backup one year and he was below average the second year. And in both seasons, his GSAA was negative.

If he could return a second IMO he would be gone. Now if he has an acceptable start to the season and some team's goaltending situation deteriorates, his value increases for sure.

But just IMO he is still a valid question mark. Replacement level sounds incendiary but if you're a backup goalie who has yet to fully establish yourself, then you're not all that far from replacement level. Lots of goalies probably fit into that category. I certainly don't see anyone rushing to sign him to an extension right now, for example.

As I said ... totally understand the concern, and the worry about both goaltenders bouncing back.

It's the over the top stuff like replacement level that drives me nuts.

There are backup goaltenders that are going nowhere. There are backup goaltenders that league scouts think have upside.

I doubt Vladar has gone from camp B to camp A 100% in one season. Serivelli seems to be supporting that.

Plus he never said a 2nd right now. There's a log jam but he thinks the Flames would be smart to wait it out.