[PGT] Flames lay an egg

[djsFlames]

I'd give Tkachuk my blessing to go ham any night he wants to and that I'd be jumping in there with him if there's merit.

You're paid seven figures to do this professionally with the best in the world, why tell guys to only get fired up now and then and limit their engagement? That's asinine. And Muzzin was classless to do what he did.

Considering when we "save our energy" we still don't elevate or do much differently in the playoffs anyways, what are we conserving for?

This is what separates average from exceptional. Guys that prepare physically, mentally, etc all the time and come in laser focused are the top in the game for that reason. They don't hold back when the game is on. That is why Markstrom is as good as he is. He brings it, and I don't think he's taken a single game off. Why can't the skaters prepare in the same way? They're capable. It comes down to passion and wanting it enough.

[SuperMatt18]

And there is a chicken and egg thing with coaching too.

Flames clearly haven’t really had a top end, elite coach here since D.Sutter. Hartley is the closest but he’s a short self life kind of guy. But those coaches commanded respect.

Neither Gulutzan or Ward command respect. So if you have a coach who you think is telling you to do stupid things, or has you playing a system that makes no sense for your personnel then it becomes easier to zone that coach out, especially if you don’t really respect him.

That’s what I feel like is probably happening with Ward.

He has them playing “safe” hockey. Dump it in, take no risks, don’t try to make a risky play, don’t step up at your own blueline, don’t try to beat a dman at their blueline, collapse in front of your own net in the defensive zone.

If you make your team play a system that a low skilled lottery team usually plays just to keep things close then you’re going to end up getting the results of a low skilled lottery team, no matter how much skill you have.

Actually you probably will end up worse because the team won’t work as hard as the low skilled lottery team would within that system.

Then if you stack on top of it that the coach himself never seems to take accountability, and always puts the blame on the players, then you have a bad recipe.

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

And there is a chicken and egg thing with coaching too.

Flames clearly haven’t really had a top end, elite coach here since D.Sutter. Hartley is the closest but he’s a short self life kind of guy.

So if you have a coach who you think is telling you to do stupid things, or has you playing a system that makes no sense for your personnel then it becomes easier to zone that coach out.

That’s what I feel like is probably happening with Ward.

He has them playing “safe” hockey. Dump it in, take no risks, don’t try to make a risky play, don’t step up at your own blueline, don’t try to beat a dman at their blueline, collapse in front of your own net in the defensive zone.

If you make your team play a system that a low skilled lottery team usually plays just to keep things close then you’re going to end up getting the results of a low skilled lottery team, no matter how much skill you have.

Actually you probably will end up worse because the team won’t work as hard as the low skilled lottery team would within that system.

I agree, but this stuff works only when you can make a pass, and/or receive a pass. Nobody on this team can do that apparently. Ward needs to devote some time to working on basic fundamentals, like a pee-wee team.

[Barnet Flame]

Boy, the Flames with three first periods there.

[Poe969]

Trade them all. Start the tank.

Nevermind, trust the process and either just miss the playoffs or get bounced first round and draft more players around 16th overall. THAT'S how you build a contender!

[Huntingwhale]

Meh, I'm not even upset after watching what was easily the worst game of the season. Literally the only good player was Markstrom who put on an amazing performance. Canucks 100% deserved to win that and it would have been a travesty if they lost. Can't even recall any semblance of sustained pressure or quick transitions to offence from the Flames.

Not only did the Flames lay an egg, they nurtured and incubated it.

[Tsawwassen]

Post game links
http://sportsstats.cbc.ca/hockey/nhl...cap133826.html
https://scores.nbcsports.com/nhl/rec...s=3&final=true

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

PGTs after losses are perhaps the most powerful examples of confirmation bias there is.
You can predict the following:
- Johnny Makarov will blame Gio, in a downright personal way too
- Kennan87 and Bubbsy will blame Tree
- Lanny will blame Sam
- A whole bunch of people will blame the coach
- Jiri (and maybe Timbit) will blame Johnny (except Jiri didn't watch much tonight so he can't)
- That-guy-who-hates-Sean-Monahan-but-I-can't-recall-the-name-of will blame Sean Monahan

None of us are immune to it, but when you look at PGTs through that lens, they are kinda funny. Just everyone saying the same things they always say.

The other thing is that, in casting the blame, you can predict there’s a whole bunch of false/made up narratives and contradictory takes in blaming the same person.

[transplant99]

“To lose the way we did, we probably would have liked to get a point after your goalie stands on his head but probably got what we deserved in that one,” Giordano said. “Marky was playing great all night, he was keeping us in it. We found a way to tie the game in the second, but you can’t turn over the puck as m as we all did tonight.any times

“We weren’t good. Power-play wasn’t good at all, execution was off and when you’re playing like that you’ve just got to play simple and we’ve got to up our compete-level,” Flames centre Sean Monahan said. “We’ve gotta learn from that real quick.”

“I don’t know what it was. Our execution was off, I don’t think we were playing together at a lot of times throughout the game,”

Players openly admitting it was their execution that betrayed them

Same core group through 4 different coaches with similar issues with all of them............blame coaching.

https://www.calgarysun.com/sports/ho...oss-to-canucks

[GS Skier]

All else aside I thought that was Gio\s worst game to date. He passed to no one no where a half dozen times. They sat Nestrov to get Mackey in. Perhaps a few nights off for 37 year old Gio would be in order. Perhaps when they take on Ottawa they could sit him for a few for a break. He is NOT even close to his old self and its impacting Anderssons decision making.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Players openly admitting it was their execution that betrayed them

Same core group through 4 different coaches with similar issues with all of them............blame coaching.

https://www.calgarysun.com/sports/ho...oss-to-canucks

This. I don’t think Ward is some wonderful coach. I also don’t think many coaches actually move the needle on their team - make it more than the sum of its parts. Trotz, Vigneault and Tortorella maybe. But is Sheldon Keefe a great coach? Is Cooper? Is Berube?

This team is a middling team - it has no true elite players other than Markstrom. There are some very good ones, like Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Monahan, but each has some pretty limiting flaws. And I can’t even blame management for this. The current gm has drafted as well as could be expected from the position - only Bennett has failed to live up to draft position and anyone would have taken him. When you only draft top 5 once you aren’t getting superstars. And given the value he had on hand to be traded, he’s done as well or better than other gms.

This team’s record is generally equivalent to the quality of the players.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Players openly admitting it was their execution that betrayed them

Same core group through 4 different coaches with similar issues with all of them............blame coaching.

https://www.calgarysun.com/sports/ho...oss-to-canucks

Bob Hartley - hasn’t coached in the NHL since leaving the Flames
Glen Gulutzan - is an assistant coach with the Edmonton Oilers
Bull Peters - hasn’t coached in the NHL since leaving the Flames
Geoff Ward - do you think he’ll be a head coach after he’s does his short stint as Flames head coach? Is there something that strikes you about his coaching ability? His line-up construction?

It isn’t exclusively the coaches, but if you think we have a good coach or that coaches don’t matter...I just don’t get it.

I absolutely also believe there are leadership issues on the ice, and roster construction issues in the GM’s office - but Ward is not a good head coach, and yeah - I guess at the end of the day all of the mediocrity falls on the shoulders of Treliving. It is just a shame that the team he built on the ice will never get to experience an even above-average head coach.

This team has won 7 games, and lost 7 games in a weak division. This is “window to compete”? Treliving has built an absolute pile of mediocrity.

[dash_pinched]

Originally Posted by btimbit

In Burke's book he pretty much says this, when talking about Gulutzan. Gulutzan's biggest problem was the vets walked all over him

This team needs a Torts or a Laviolette

How about a Gallant?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

This. I don’t think Ward is some wonderful coach. I also don’t think many coaches actually move the needle on their team - make it more than the sum of its parts. Trotz, Vigneault and Tortorella maybe. But is Sheldon Keene a great coach? Is Cooper?

This team is a middling team - it has no true elite players other than Markstrom. There are some very good ones, like Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Monahan, but each has some pretty limiting flaws. And I can’t even blame management for this. The current gm has drafted as well as could be expected from the position - only Bennett has failed to live up to draft position and anyone would have taken him. When you only draft top 5 once you aren’t getting superstars. And given the value he had on hand to be traded, he’s done as well or better than other gms.

This team’s record is generally equivalent to the quality of the players.

Completely fair and accurate assessment in my mind.

Some complain bitterly about the Flames being where they are, but unfortunately we just haven’t been lucky enough to have a Brayden Point fall on our lap, yet. Treliving has done about as well as anyone can/should reasonably expect.

The team has been competitive since his arrival and I bet that is the measuring stick he is evaluated by internally. The Flames haven’t had a top 5 pick, outside of Bennett, ever. That’s not a coincidence.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I don’t dispute there is room for improvement

But this game was so predictable. Canucks coming in 0-6, Flames coming in 3-0, the Canucks have a team bonding thing, the whole thing was predictable

Markstrom is a genius at tending which is great but Backlund gets hurt and that is a bloody huge loss.

Team loses a game in which the other team had unsustainable push

Even great teams with great coaches lost games like this

It happens and although things aren’t perfect this game isn’t the one people should watch and hold hands and drive their convertibles into a canyon

And this is the issue. Everyone knew the Canucks would be pushing insanely hard. So maybe Ward should have done something to prepare his team for that...other than putting Mackey in for his first NHL game ever. Maybe adjust the breakout. Change the putrid PP entry. Insert a young forward into the lineup who could match the Canucks intensity. All a rookie dman is going to do is try not to make a mistake, and while Mackey was good, that's not what the team needed in this game.

It's been a year and Ward has this team playing the same ineffective hockey over and over.

[Red]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Players openly admitting it was their execution that betrayed them

Same core group through 4 different coaches with similar issues with all of them............blame coaching.

https://www.calgarysun.com/sports/ho...oss-to-canucks

Come on now, you know very well that he has to say that.
Was he supposed to tell them that the coach has them playing a bad system?

In reality, it's both.
Coach is unable to create a system and environment that makes the players want to play hard. When they have fun they play hard. And we enjoy that and the team can look very good. Think Bill Peters first season.
When you are asked to play boring hockey, it becomes a job. Every shift is a chore. Every play is a task.

As for the game summary. Wow. They keep finding a new low.
This team has yet to outplay their opponent this year. Even the wins have been poor games. Save maybe one game, but that's probably generous. Bubbsy said earlier that they played 16 brutal periods when they were soundly outclassed. That's 30% of the season. Let that sink in.

A month ago we were thinking about winning the division. On paper we were right up there.
I think posters have every right to be upset and dissatisfied. So let people have opinions. No need to defend the team with delusions. We don't care about high danger chances recored by an unbiased website. Those stats are junk. We have eyes. A team that was supposed to be great is playing terribly.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Players openly admitting it was their execution that betrayed them

Same core group through 4 different coaches with similar issues with all of them............blame coaching.

https://www.calgarysun.com/sports/ho...oss-to-canucks

And WW1 would have been over in a year if the soldiers simply executed the plan properly to go over the top, charge machine guns through no man's land and overrun the enemy.

The issue isn't execution with this team. It's that they are being asked to execute a plan that's two steps behind the competition.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Players openly admitting it was their execution that betrayed them

Same core group through 4 different coaches with similar issues with all of them............blame coaching.

https://www.calgarysun.com/sports/ho...oss-to-canucks

Same core group that's played under 4 different coaches that will never be NHL head coaches again in the NHL. There's a trend alright and it's that the coaches simply haven't been good enough. Coaches get fired all the time and it's because you either have a good one or you don't.

[Red]

The Flames top line is not good enough to mask poor coaching.
A one dimensional top line C. A tiny guy that's easy to intimidate and knock of his game and a guy that asked to be traded.
Don't want to make excuses for Ward, but that line is just not getting the job done. A good top line will have 20 great dominating shifts a game. Ours has one or 2 and usually only on the PP.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by 868904

If you don’t think it’s coaching, let me ask you how many times you felt as a fan cheated of a Darryl Sutter or Brian Sutter coached team? How many players only meetings has a Darryl Sutter coached team had?
.

The notion that the Brian Sutter led Flames were a hard working crew - is nothing more than myth. That team was both not talented enough and lazy/soft.
Look at some of the names from 1998/1999
- Cory Stillman
- Phil Housley
- Val Bure
- Andrew Cassels
- Derek Morris

The core and skilled players were very inconsistent and not committed.
I'm not going to get into a debate about Theo - but noting he was the top scorer.

It probably drove Brian nuts, but I was a STH at the time and I can tell you that there were many nights I felt cheated by the effort put forward.