[Trade] Hall (50% ret), Speers to ARI for 1st, cond 3rd, Merkley, Schnarr, Bahl

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I get your point, but I think you're being a bit unfair. You are suggesting that Treliving sat back and didn't go all in after giving up significant assets to get Hamonic.

I would say that he has been very aggressive and has tried to go all in on multiple occasions. (That we know of), he was pushing hard on Zucker, Stone, Hall, and Kadri, within the last 10 months, and probably more that we don't know of or I can't remember.

Did he close the deals? Obviously not, but the price paid matters, and I for one, like the fact that our GM is very tight with the purse strings.

And at the same time, he did close the deal on Lindholm and Hanifin. And he also signed Neal and Ryan last year (and the fact that Neal shat the bed is on Neal, not on Treliving).

Say what you want about getting the deals done, but I don't think it's at all accurate or fair to say that he then went 'conservative'. It looks to me like he has been as aggressive as any GM in the league over the last 18 months.

I'd say he was pretty aggressive on changing the team with the Hamonic/Ferland trade, and with the Neal signing. Obviously he thought Neal would be good for 25 or so goals.If Neal performs, your top six is as solid as most teams, plus you have a dynamite top 4 D.

Plus he added Czarnik, Ryan. That's all one off season.

[Toonage]

wrong thread

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

LeBrun says the Flames might have put up just as good a package (at least in Treliving's mind) as the Coyotes did.

https://theathletic.com/1467963/2019...erested-teams/

Awesome.

Love reading once again about how the Flames almost made the team better, but just couldn't get er done for whatever reason.

In on Stone, nope
Had Zucker acquired, nope
Kadri deal all but done, nope
In on Hall, nope

Meanwhile the contention window is potentially closing.

[JurassicTunga12]

Well that's frustrating as hell.

[cam_wmh]

Maybe the Flames still sign him in the off-season to a team friendly deal?

[Vinny01]

Another close miss for the Flames and gives some credit to some of the connected folks opinion the Flames were potentially a front runner.

My guess they had a package built around Bennett, Parsons, Kylington and picks.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Any deal with the Flames would have involved the first heading their way. This is a damn good draft this year - I don't want that first moved. This team isn't Taylor Hall away from winning a cup (at least in my view). The recent winning streak aside, the team hasn't proven to me yet that they are anything more than the squad that got destroyed by the Avs last year. How they respond now to this loss is key. Do they start a new winning streak or go back to being a .500 club?

I need to see more before trading away even more futures.

What I think all these failed moves does show is that BT isn't convinced this club is a contender without some changes.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Another close miss for the Flames and gives some credit to some of the connected folks opinion the Flames were potentially a front runner.

My guess they had a package built around Bennett, Parsons, Kylington and picks.

If it were all that, Hall would be a Flame today.

[mrdonkey]

Treliving was due to have another “we were close but couldn’t get it done” moment.

Wonder what almost-trades we’ll hear about at the deadline, where our big acquisition is a Flames player coming off injury.

I didn’t want Hall on this team but it sure is getting frustrating to hear about how the Flames keep coming up short.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by JurassicTunga12

Well that's frustrating as hell.

Well that’s frustrating as Hall.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Treliving was due to have another “we were close but couldn’t get it done” moment.

Wonder what almost-trades we’ll hear about at the deadline, where our big acquisition is a Flames player coming off injury.

I didn’t want Hall on this team but it sure is getting frustrating to hear about how the Flames keep coming up short.

Perhaps why he referred to himself as horses**t

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Another close miss for the Flames and gives some credit to some of the connected folks opinion the Flames were potentially a front runner.

My guess they had a package built around Bennett, Parsons, Kylington and picks.

I doubt the package was that good - if it was, the Devils are pretty dumb. I'd guess it was more in line with: Kylington, Petterson, Gawdin and similar picks to what the Yotes gave up.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Treliving was due to have another “we were close but couldn’t get it done” moment.

I'd much rather have this be the story, rather than have a GM that consistently makes bad trades, or a GM who is never rumored to be looking at upgrading or changing the roster.

You want a GM that tends to be involved in everything, but also has the knowledge to not go crazy and offer past what fair value is.

In the end I wouldn't be surprised if the difference ended up being that the Devils ended up thinking that the first they could get from Arizona will be better than the first they get from the Flames.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Any deal with the Flames would have involved the first heading their way. This is a damn good draft this year - I don't want that first moved. This team isn't Taylor Hall away from winning a cup (at least in my view). The recent winning streak aside, the team hasn't proven to me yet that they are anything more than the squad that got destroyed by the Avs last year. How they respond now to this loss is key. Do they start a new winning streak or go back to being a .500 club?

I need to see more before trading away even more futures.

What I think all these failed moves does show is that BT isn't convinced this club is a contender without some changes.

I would be willing to make a wager that Taylor Hall scores more points from now until the end of his career than any pick from 15-31 in this coming draft does in their respective career.

Sure there was no guarantee that we would resign him, but if we are constantly looking for prospects 3-4 years out we are literally never going to win the cup. Look at the blues- they made some really key acquisitions in Schenn and ROR using picks and prospects. It won them the cup.

Debate all you want over whether Hall was the one or not. The same debate can be made for Stone, or ROR, etc. etc. The fact is that our contention window with this core is closing and we been gunshy about acquiring pieces that could put us over the top. Not so for our divisional rivals. Are we as fans being asked to wait ~6 years again for a real contender? We were asked to do that at the beginning of this decade and now here we are. Prospects are fickle as F- even if they do turn out you may still be missing something. Adding a known superstar to a known core gives you a somewhat predictable result.

I for one want predictable results from this club. That's what we were promised was 5-6 years out after trading Iggy. Where is the club coming through on that promise?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I'd much rather have this be the story, rather than have a GM that consistently makes bad trades, or a GM who is never rumored to be looking at upgrading or changing the roster.

You want a GM that tends to be involved in everything, but also has the knowledge to not go crazy and offer past what fair value is.

In the end I wouldn't be surprised if the difference ended up being that the Devils ended up thinking that the first they could get from Arizona will be better than the first they get from the Flames.

I agree in concept that it is good to have a GM that sticks to fair value. The practical results are very poor. Allowing two teams that we are contending with yearly to pick up two of the best wingers in the game while we also look for one is pretty ####ing terrible.

I don't know how anyone can look at the package arizona gave and say we couldn't have beat that. Was there risk? Sure. No risk- no reward. The reward in this case is a line driving game breaking offensive player. Now one of the teams we are competing for a playoff position with has that player. How's that for a risk?

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I'd much rather have this be the story, rather than have a GM that consistently makes bad trades, or a GM who is never rumored to be looking at upgrading or changing the roster.



You want a GM that tends to be involved in everything, but also has the knowledge to not go crazy and offer past what fair value is.



In the end I wouldn't be surprised if the difference ended up being that the Devils ended up thinking that the first they could get from Arizona will be better than the first they get from the Flames.

Well, the thing is that Treliving has no qualms about squandering picks on the likes of Mike Smith, Elliott, Hamonic, Fantenberg, and Lazar. Or blowing cap space on guys like Neal and Brouwer and Stone.

But when it comes time to actually improve the team he realizes he doesn’t have the assets or the cap space to make it work and falls short - wonder why.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I agree in concept that it is good to have a GM that sticks to fair value. The practical results are very poor. Allowing two teams that we are contending with yearly to pick up two of the best wingers in the game while we also look for one is pretty ####ing terrible.

I think it remains to be seen at this point. VGK failed to advance past the first round last year, and certainly does not look like an obvious Cup threat today. Even with Hall in the lineup for the balance of the season Arizona looks like a team that will struggle to score. On the other hand, I think teams can get themselves into big trouble by losing sight of long-term goals for short-term wins over division rivals.

I don't know how anyone can look at the package arizona gave and say we couldn't have beat that. Was there risk? Sure. No risk- no reward. The reward in this case is a line driving game breaking offensive player. Now one of the teams we are competing for a playoff position with has that player. How's that for a risk?

First off, I don't see anyone posting here that suggests the Flames could not have beaten Arizona's offer. This is a straw man. Second, I'm still not convinced that 45 games of Taylor Hall in Arizona is even remotely an unacceptable risk for the Flames to make. They have only one game remaining between them, in Calgary, and as mentioned above, even with Hall added to the Coyotes roster I am not convinced they are a better team than the Flames.

Maybe it's just me, but I much prefer the more calculated approach of Treliving to the hair-on-fire reactionary freak-outs by some of the fans.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I'd much rather have this be the story, rather than have a GM that consistently makes bad trades, or a GM who is never rumored to be looking at upgrading or changing the roster.

You want a GM that tends to be involved in everything, but also has the knowledge to not go crazy and offer past what fair value is.

In the end I wouldn't be surprised if the difference ended up being that the Devils ended up thinking that the first they could get from Arizona will be better than the first they get from the Flames.

No kidding. The Flames are always in on these rumours because we have one of the most tireless GMs in the league that never stops hunting to make our team better, that's what you want. Would people prefer that we become, off the top of my head, the Rangers or the Jets that are never in on anything? People just want the trades for the sake of entertainment or shock value in the moment, and then two years later they'll bitch about being stuck paying Erik Karlsson 11.5 per or losing Valimaki for two months of Mark Stone and forget how hard they lusted after a trade. We can rest assured that BT knows about and is on just about everything around the league, and if it makes sense and makes our team better, like trading Hamilton and two throw ins for two young cost controlled studs, he'll pull the trigger.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I think it remains to be seen at this point. VGK failed to advance past the first round last year, and certainly does not look like an obvious Cup threat today. Even with Hall in the lineup for the balance of the season Arizona looks like a team that will struggle to score. On the other hand, I think teams can get themselves into big trouble by losing sight of long-term goals for short-term wins over division rivals.

[/I]
First off, I don't see anyone posting here that suggests the Flames could not have beaten Arizona's offer. This is a straw man. Second, I'm still not convinced that 45 games of Taylor Hall in Arizona is even remotely an unacceptable risk for the Flames to make. They have only one game remaining between them, in Calgary, and as mentioned above, even with Hall added to the Coyotes roster I am not convinced they are a better team than the Flames.

Maybe it's just me, but I much prefer the more calculated approach of Treliving to the hair-on-fire reactionary freak-outs by some of the fans.

I resent this, as I have been advocating to trade for another game breaking player to support this core for 2+ years now. There's nothing reactionary about this, nor is it a freak out.

Regarding the risk- how can you be so confident that the hart winner from two seasons ago, who dragged a much worse team than the current Coyotes into the playoffs on his own, will not impact that club? There is more evidence to suggest Hall will have a transformative impact to their offense than not.
I disagree entirely that this is acceptable risk- if you were in a corporate setting and allowed two competitors to gain trade advantages over you in a scenario where you could have acquired those advantages, you would be in trouble. Treliving has been the best GM the flames have had in decades, but this is a major strike against him IMO.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Treliving has been the best GM the flames have had in decades, but this is a major strike against him IMO.

When your competition is Craig Button, Darryl Sutter, and Jay Feaster, that doesn’t exactly say much. How he measures up to other GMs working today is the comparison anyone should care about.

(IMO he has only been average - good enough to keep the boat from completely tipping over, but his mistakes have been brutal and probably cost this team their window to contend)