Garbage bag day

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

So, basically what I'm seeing in here is that almost every projected lineup is either "too small" or "too slow."

It seems that the answer needs to come from outside and it needs to address both of those issues.

That's kind of where I'm at, I think. Building an insanely deep defense was great if there was injuries and I totally understand the desire. But I think this summer Brad has to make a serious upgrade to our forward group via our defensive group.

This is important to a) make our team more balanced and b) start preparing for the expansion draft, as every team is going to be looking to shed good players for value when it comes closer.

[jayswin]

And it's going to take more than people think to upgrade. Unfortunately, Neal and Brouwer have basically taken up an entire top six forward position in the cap structure without providing anything to the offense. That is deadly.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Cole436

I posted this in December of 2015. It makes me feel concerned that I feel this could have been written word for word after his post-season play. 2019-20 looks like the make or break year for Monahan with the Flames. If he doesn't respond in a big way then I believe his role in the organization needs to be rethought.

Word for word still 100% accurate.
At this point, everyone knows what he is and likely will be.

Management now has to just accept that and determine what role he can play with that in mind.
Whether that means trading him, supporting him with physical linemates or demoting him to the 2nd line, I dont know.
But betting on him to significantly change is a bad bet.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

I don't think the loss had anything to do with toughness. We let the Avs gather speed right from their own zone across the neutral zone, with barely a hint of a forecheck. By the time they hit our zone, they were at full speed and blew by the Flames in the D zone.

Rittich wouldn't have helped. Smith was out of his mind but the rest of the team couldn't keep up because they were too passive on the puck.

I thought about this last night for awhile. I will probably get roasted, but I think Smith had them playing slower.

The reason for this, is that Colorado knew he would be playing the puck and clogged off the boards on both sides. That has the D man standing still to receive the pass, and the Avs players are able to quickly close gaps and smother them.

You'll notice in game 4, Smith was passing up the middle of the ice as Colorado had the boards on both sides completely covered.

IMO, Rittich would have allowed our dmen to gain speed (like MacKinnon was doing) by letting them skate onto the puck, rather than waiting to receive a Smith outlet pass.

[JJolg]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

I thought about this last night for awhile. I will probably get roasted, but I think Smith had them playing slower.

The reason for this, is that Colorado knew he would be playing the puck and clogged off the boards on both sides. That has the D man standing still to receive the pass, and the Avs players are able to quickly close gaps and smother them.

You'll notice in game 4, Smith was passing up the middle of the ice as Colorado had the boards on both sides completely covered.

IMO, Rittich would have allowed our dmen to gain speed (like MacKinnon was doing) by letting them skate onto the puck, rather than waiting to receive a Smith outlet pass.

I think it would have been even worse and instead of just forwards being afraid of being hit the defense would have been also. The amount of wear saved by Smith playing the puck is massive, the way the avs entered the zone would have been open season on the guy retrieving the puck.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Flames are a pretty slow team at forward. Let's review our top 9


Centre
Monahan - Probably the slowest "1C" in the NHL, or right there with Joe Pavelski. His footspeed causes issues with weak backchecking, forechecking, breaking the other team's cycle, and carrying the puck through the middle of the ice.

Backlund - Above average skater, but will always be outclassed speedwise trying to check McDavid, MacKinnon types to the point where he was going 100% and his stamina became an issue and he faded late into tight games. Doesn't have the explosive speed through the middle needed to generate much offensively through tight checking. Not a problem if he's your second-best C (a la Soderberg in COL) but in reality he's probably our best C which IS a problem.

Jankowski - Not very quick at all. Outclassed by Colorado's speed, no getting around it.

Left Wing

Gaudreau - He's a good and deceptive skater, but when push comes to shove and he gets any sort of advantage in open ice he usually gets caught by a good backchecker because his straight line speed is nothing to write home about.

Tkachuk - Fast is not a word I would use to describe him. This hurt us against with him in a checking role vs the Avs' top players as he couldn't win any races to loose pucks or play the passing lanes usefully.

Bennett - Much like Gaudreau he's a good skater with fine edgework but he too doesn't have high-end straight line speed he used to have before he put on the muscle he did. That said his addition to the Gaudreau line resulted in the only time that line played with anything resembling speed, because he was playing fast and efficiently. His speed is also limited by the wing position as he rarely has much open ice to wind up and go the way that makes him most effective.

Right Wing
Lindholm - Decent skater, but like Bennett the wing position limits his speed and he doesn't really have much explosiveness.

Frolik - See Lindholm/Bennett, but Frolik does seem to have a better feel for how to use his speed as a winger, probably because he is a natural winger.

Neal - Lead-footed, no other description necessary.


On defense, yes by the end of the series Giordano, Brodie, and Valimaki all played with speed. Andersson did too, though physical foot speed isn't a strength he was playing fast outside of one pretty bad sequence in game 5.

But still - even one of our better skaters, Noah Hanifin looked like he was skating in concrete during that series as he wasn't mentally playing with anything resembling pace, nor was his partner Hamonic. That pair's lack of pace was an absolute momentum killer. This was one of the knocks on Hanifin by Hurricanes fans a year ago and it culminated in our second pair being easier to get in on than a prostitute in Amsterdam.

Nice effort. Pretty much agree with everything. The Flames have great puck moving defensemen who can transition from defense to attack so the Flames can play a fast game. But in general, our forwards lack that extra gear that is needed in the playoffs and it was on full display vs the Avs when every foot race and 50/50 puck was basically won by the other side.

Also, one of the biggest problems I find up the middle of the ice for the Flames is that not only do they lack exceptional foot speed, but they don't play a heavy game either. They sort of straddle that line Take Monahan for instance, he isn't fast, but he also doesn't have that strong game down low.

That's probably why Tkachuk is such a productive player even though he might be the slowest player on the team. He doesn't play 1st line minutes, he doesn't even play with Gaudreau, but when he has that puck down low, it's glued to him. Nobody takes it from him and he buys a lot of time for his teammates to get open so he can dish. If Monahan had this ability in his repertoire, at the very least, the 1st line could cycle more often, but they're almost exclusively a dangerous rush line.

I think Treliving needs to work on finding more big, heavy, fast players and quick, feisty, skilled players. This should help the Flames become a more difficult team to play against in the playoffs.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Red

A lot of talk about speed. I don't see it.
How many goals did the Aves score off the rush when the lead guy blew past coverage?
1. - Mac, OT GM2

Most goals were scored from between the dots or around the crease. Game 3 had a couple of odd man rush goals. But not really fast plays if you rewatch them.

The SH goal gm 2 was a breakaway caused by a dumb play, not speed.

The Flames are not a slow team. Colorado is not that fast of a team, they have a fast top line. But we have fast D too. Their best D were Cole and Zadorov. Stay at home tough Dmen.

Go figure.

The Avalanche scored a ton off the rush indirectly IMO, think about how many times Mackinnon and co would blaze through the neutral zone with speed and force our defense to constantly give up the blue line, then stop up and find the trailer or find another man open, or fire a high quality shot on Mike Smith?

The only reason the Avalanche didn't score as often on the rush was because Smith was fantastic at stopping the first shot, but when the Avs gained the zone and started to cycle, they found ways to score between the dots and in front of the crease. But ultimately, it all originated from Colorado's speed through the neutral zone.

You can probably take it another step back if you'd like and look at how they defended the Flames. Think about how often we saw the Flames forwards on the attack only to turnover it over because of the relentless back pressure of the Avs forwards. Colorado gave the Flames virtually no time and space because they were able to close in on guys like Gaudreau and Tkachuk and Backlund and etc very quickly using their speed.

In the end, it was 20 seconds of the Flames on the attack and another 40 seconds having to defend and the Flames were constantly dumping the puck back in just to change. Speed was absolutely the biggest factor in this series. That's why Bill Peters said yesterday that the Flames need to be faster and I'm inclined to believe that since his assistants probably dissected every inch of this series.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by JJolg

I think it would have been even worse and instead of just forwards being afraid of being hit the defense would have been also. The amount of wear saved by Smith playing the puck is massive, the way the avs entered the zone would have been open season on the guy retrieving the puck.

The amount of wear saved by bowing out meekly in 5 games is even greater.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

The Avalanche scored a ton off the rush indirectly IMO, think about how many times Mackinnon and co would blaze through the neutral zone with speed and force our defense to constantly give up the blue line, then stop up and find the trailer or find another man open, or fire a high quality shot on Mike Smith?

The only reason the Avalanche didn't score as often on the rush was because Smith was fantastic at stopping the first shot, but when the Avs gained the zone and started to cycle, they found ways to score between the dots and in front of the crease. But ultimately, it all originated from Colorado's speed through the neutral zone.

You can probably take it another step back if you'd like and look at how they defended the Flames. Think about how often we saw the Flames forwards on the attack only to turnover it over because of the relentless back pressure of the Avs forwards. Colorado gave the Flames virtually no time and space because they were able to close in on guys like Gaudreau and Tkachuk and Backlund and etc very quickly using their speed.

In the end, it was 20 seconds of the Flames on the attack and another 40 seconds having to defend and the Flames were constantly dumping the puck back in just to change. Speed was absolutely the biggest factor in this series. That's why Bill Peters said yesterday that the Flames need to be faster and I'm inclined to believe that since his assistants probably dissected every inch of this series.

Scoring after cycling for 20-40 seconds has little to do with speed and everything to do with size and strength.

I agree that the Aves looked faster, but if you fly in the zone and then proceed to cycle, a good D should neutralize their efforts. But for that you need to win a board battle.

I rewatched all goals and saw many opportunities where had we won the 50-50 battle we would not have allowed a chance.
Turnovers were a huge part too. So they either forgot how to pass or were scared and rushed plays.

[genetic_phreek]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Flames are a pretty slow team at forward.

Gaudreau - He's a good and deceptive skater, but when push comes to shove and he gets any sort of advantage in open ice he usually gets caught by a good backchecker because his straight line speed is nothing to write home about.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one that saw this. A perfect example of being quick vs being fast.

[TheRealPepman]

Anyone surprised that Bread Man, Lanny Jr., and Hatahway didn't show up yesterday?

[AC]

Originally Posted by TheRealPepman

Anyone surprised that Bread Man, Lanny Jr., and Hatahway didn't show up yesterday?

Source?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by TheRealPepman

Anyone surprised that Bread Man, Lanny Jr., and Hatahway didn't show up yesterday?

Hathaway was definitely there, they showed him with a couple other players. Maybe the Flames only made a certain number of players available for media?

[Toonage]

They apparently didn't do media but that doesn't mean they weren't there. We would have heard about it like Dougie last year or Kipper..uh...every year.

[TheRealPepman]

Originally Posted by Toonage

They apparently didn't do media but that doesn't mean they weren't there. We would have heard about it like Dougie last year or Kipper..uh...every year.

Thanks. I just assumed that every player interviewed were players that showed up to pack their hockey bags and all. My bad there. Didn't know other players don't need to be interviewed. I never really cared about garbage bag day until this season.

Forgot about Kipper. I do remember reading about that before. But then again I was never a fan at the time when Kipper was playing so that side of Kipper didn't resonate with me that much. When I became a Flames fan, Jonas Hiller was the starting netminder for goodness' sake.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Red

Scoring after cycling for 20-40 seconds has little to do with speed and everything to do with size and strength.



I agree that the Aves looked faster, but if you fly in the zone and then proceed to cycle, a good D should neutralize their efforts. But for that you need to win a board battle.



I rewatched all goals and saw many opportunities where had we won the 50-50 battle we would not have allowed a chance.

Turnovers were a huge part too. So they either forgot how to pass or were scared and rushed plays.

Did you see Colorado’s forwards? They might have one of the most undersized groups I’ve ever seen. I think almost every forward minus 2 or 3 are below the league’s average. Pretty sure they had the most 5’11 and shorter players and they ran circles around our team and pretty much won all the 50/50 battles.

The Avalanche are not even close to being considered a heavy team and they dominated. I also believe players don’t just forget how to pass, I’d say the turnovers were mostly caused by Colorado’s speed as their pressure forced plays to be rushed and costly turnovers.

The Flames have also tried to add size and strength with guys like Brouwer, Neal, Jagr and etc and these guys had extremely limited success to just straight up negative impacts. It’s actually been the little guys Treliving has added who’ve had more success with the team (Derek Ryan, Versteeg, Mangiapane and etc).

I do agree with you overall though that the Flames could stand to add some size, strength and more importantly to me, speed because I actually don’t think the Flames match up well against both the heavy teams in the NHL and the fastest ones.

Ideally I’d really like Treliving to add any player(s) that can skate fast and hard, get in and win loose puck battles using whatever leverage (size or speed) and just create havoc in the offensive zone. Maybe find a guy with some actual finish too. Every one of our lines could honestly use a player like this. They do the dirty work and make life easier for our stars to create.



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[Red]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Did you see Colorado’s forwards? They might have one of the most undersized groups I’ve ever seen. I think almost every forward minus 2 or 3 are below the league’s average. Pretty sure they had the most 5’11 and shorter players and they ran circles around our team and pretty much won all the 50/50 battles.

The Avalanche are not even close to being considered a heavy team and they dominated. I also believe players don’t just forget how to pass, I’d say the turnovers were mostly caused by Colorado’s speed as their pressure forced plays to be rushed and costly turnovers.

The Flames have also tried to add size and strength with guys like Brouwer, Neal, Jagr and etc and these guys had extremely limited success to just straight up negative impacts. It’s actually been the little guys Treliving has added who’ve had more success with the team (Derek Ryan, Versteeg, Mangiapane and etc).

I do agree with you overall though that the Flames could stand to add some size, strength and more importantly to me, speed because I actually don’t think the Flames match up well against both the heavy teams in the NHL and the fastest ones.

Ideally I’d really like Treliving to add any player(s) that can skate fast and hard, get in and win loose puck battles using whatever leverage (size or speed) and just create havoc in the offensive zone. Maybe find a guy with some actual finish too. Every one of our lines could honestly use a player like this. They do the dirty work and make life easier for our stars to create.



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The aves top line is 10 fold thougher than ours. And that's just Landeskog alone.

Lool at the Aves D. Big Z, Cole, Nemeth.... They owned our top guys. Didn't give them any space. JG and Monahan didn't forget how to skate or pass, just had no room out there. You say we were for checked to quickly? Then shoot it in and win the board battle. But here is the problem, we can't win board battles with our roster.
We have a flawed roster that cannot adjust. Great at river hockey, but can't play teams with heavy game.
Any wonder why we didn't want to face Dallas? It's because they don't give you middle ice. They make you grind it out and we just don't have the team for it.

At least that's my opinion. Speed is great too, but playoffs are mostly about winning board battles and getting to dirty areas, not breakaways and end to end rushes.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

...
The Flames have also tried to add size and strength with guys like Brouwer, Neal, Jagr and etc and these guys had extremely limited success to just straight up negative impacts. It’s actually been the little guys Treliving has added who’ve had more success with the team (Derek Ryan, Versteeg, Mangiapane and etc).

...

I don’t lump Jagr in there.

He was on the ice for many more goals for than against. Still knew where to go and still could protect the puck with his huge ass.

Just poor conditioning off the hop led to an injury.

Would have liked to see Jagr back if he had an off season of preparation behind him, over the spot wasted on Neal

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I don’t lump Jagr in there.

He was on the ice for many more goals for than against. Still knew where to go and still could protect the puck with his huge ass.

Just poor conditioning off the hop led to an injury.

Would have liked to see Jagr back if he had an off season of preparation behind him, over the spot wasted on Neal

Agreed. Jagr was a legend whos knees gave out on him. He was at least effective aside from being slow. You can't compare him to Brouwer or Neal

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Red

The aves top line is 10 fold thougher than ours. And that's just Landeskog alone.



Lool at the Aves D. Big Z, Cole, Nemeth.... They owned our top guys. Didn't give them any space. JG and Monahan didn't forget how to skate or pass, just had no room out there. You say we were for checked to quickly? Then shoot it in and win the board battle. But here is the problem, we can't win board battles with our roster.

We have a flawed roster that cannot adjust. Great at river hockey, but can't play teams with heavy game.

Any wonder why we didn't want to face Dallas? It's because they don't give you middle ice. They make you grind it out and we just don't have the team for it.



At least that's my opinion. Speed is great too, but playoffs are mostly about winning board battles and getting to dirty areas, not breakaways and end to end rushes.

Sounds like you’re yearning for the days of the post lockout Flames when we had the likes of Regehr, Sarich, Warrener, Aucoin, Phaneuf, Vandermeer, Hale.

We had a big tough intimidating team back in the day too that was supposedly built for the playoffs, but all they did was lose in the first round and disappoint.



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