[Signing] Oilers have re-signed Koskinen (3 yrs, $4.5 mil AAV, 15 team NTC)

[Red]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Player agents aren't interested in giving teams "bargains." They're here to help their clients get as much as money as possible.

And the Oilers are doing exactly that. They're playing their "cheap" back up who is already making $2.5M. Back ups don't get paid $2.5M. It's obvious he came in as a high potential 1B and he's over taken the #1 job and will be paid to start for them next season.

This isn't a Ilya Bryzgalov like contract here, so I'm not sure why there's so much overreacting. Possibly because it's Peter Chiarelli and he's made a lot of blunders lately and the perception is, he can't do anything right at the moment. But I don't think the deal is as bad as everyone seems to think it is.

I don't think negotiating contracts work like that. You absolutely want a bargain and you do everything you can to get it. Chia just signed what was put in front of him. Thinj about it, if this is the "met in the middle" deal then what was the original ask? 6.5mil?
I'm glad Tre made Johhny sweat before getting him at a bargain price. Chia would have signed him for 9 Mil.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Koskinen is in the better position to make more money because he's a UFA and he's proven to his team, that he's going to be their #1 this season and going forward. What other option does Chiarelli or whoever else is in charge going to have next year? They had no goaltender under contract.

Sign Bobrovsky or Varlamov to potential albatross contracts? Or sign Koskinen to a deal now. Who knows what those other 2 I just mentioned are going to get, so Koskinen's deal might actually end up looking great in comparison. IMO, contracts are all about supply and demand and leverage and unless we're actually in the business itself, we're just left to guess what we think is right.

So he got bent over...we all agree.

and how has he proven to be a starter? 8 great games as a backup?
Let's see how he plays when Talbot is gone and the pressure of $$$ rises. That Edmonton crowd will chew him up pretty quick.

[Robbob]

At this point the other 30, soon to be 31 GMs, when talking about comparable contracts have to go by Olympic judging rules. Toss the worst(Oilers) and best contract to find the middle of the road when talking to agents.

[Firebot]

Signing Koskinen at the beginning of the year, along with Chiasson are the only 2 actions out of dozens that were positive for Chia, and Koskinen only happened because Talbot is having such a bad year. Instead of thanking his good fortune that Koskinen prevented the Oilers from being 31st in the league and build on that with a reasonable extension, he gave Koskinen a blank cheque.

This is the only way I can see the negotiations:
Chia: "I want to sign you long term. You made me look pretty good and I want to lock you up now in case you may win a Vezina at some point, how much?"
Koskinen's agent to Koskinen: "Make sure to start your negotiation super high to eventually bargain down to what is good value, 2.5 x 2 is what we will fight up for"
Koskinen "I want 4.5 million a year and at least 3 years"
Chia: "Let me guess you want a NTC too?"
Koskinen: "Eh? Uh sure yes I want that too!"
Chia: "You drive a hard bargain...ok done! I always keep a few napkins handy to write a contract on just for this...4.5 million x 3, NTC but limited to 15 teams and not a team more!!"
Koskinen: "Wait, what?"
Koskinen's agent: " "

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Chiarelli is not the smartest guy in the room. He's made a lot of poor acquisitions and he's getting his fair share of blame. But he also has a Stanley Cup on his resume which is something none of us here can say we have.

The actual problem here is that because it's Chiarelli, everyone just assumes every move he makes is bad, almost as if he's incapable of making a decision that could even remotely be seen as right or even ok.

I also don't have all day here to explain to each and everyone my opinion on the matter. So the last thing I'm going to say is that there's a little bit too much overreaction in this thread in my opinion. This was not some kind of Ilya Bryzgalov albatross or some crazy long term Roberto Luongo type contract. It's a 3 year deal. Easy to stomach, easy to buy out. If he plays 50-60 games next season for them and at his current ability, then the deal will turn out fine. There's certainly a lot more glaring issues on this team than Miiko Koskinen.

I think the problem with this deal is there was no reason to do it today. This contract was available to be signed the day before Talbot is traded. Once Talbot is traded Koski's leverage goes up so I get doing it before than. However you have 1 month before the deadline, you have plenty of time to grind him down. If he starts to perform better again the price doesn't change because you are already paying him for his streak of performance. If he continues to play worse you aren't stuck with him even if the number doesn't change.

It just speaks to poor GMing that he doesn't understand or use leverage. Yes its not his worst move but its another on the list that makes no sense.

[Split98]

Listening to Hockey Central, they're talking a lot about 'why now?' and I have a theory...

They are trading Talbot at the deadline (or losing him in the off-season), leaving them with 0 NHL goalies signed for next year
They know they're terrible, and have a pretty good idea of what goalies want to play in orange
With the numbers they might be speculating someone like Bobrovsky will want to sign with you, they know that what they saw in Koskinen would be their best case scenario
Koskinen and his agent have an idea of this as well, which is tough not to when they are asking you to re-sign 25-30 games into your first NHL season

If all that is true, Chia & Co are faced with over-paying now, or having 0 goalies in the off-season and over-paying more then... while also gambling that goalies choose to play on your team.

Even if you give them credit for being aware of the garbage they're putting on the ice and the league perception of their efforts... it's a pretty good sign that there's a lot more to come.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Red

I'm glad Tre made Johhny sweat before getting him at a bargain price. Chia would have signed him for 9 Mil.

Likely one of the reasons why most expect Johnny to be gone when his contract is up.

Now, I'm not advocating giving a player what he simply wants, but make no mistake, there can be a cost associated with getting your best possible deal.

In fact, getting your best possible deal is seldom your actual best possible deal.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Split98

Listening to Hockey Central, they're talking a lot about 'why now?' and I have a theory...

They are trading Talbot at the deadline (or losing him in the off-season), leaving them with 0 NHL goalies signed for next year
They know they're terrible, and have a pretty good idea of what goalies want to play in orange
With the numbers they might be speculating someone like Bobrovsky will want to sign with you, they know that what they saw in Koskinen would be their best case scenario
Koskinen and his agent have an idea of this as well, which is tough not to when they are asking you to re-sign 25-30 games into your first NHL season

If all that is true, Chia & Co are faced with over-paying now, or having 0 goalies in the off-season and over-paying more then... while also gambling that goalies choose to play on your team.

Even if you give them credit for being aware of the garbage they're putting on the ice and the league perception of their efforts... it's a pretty good sign that there's a lot more to come.

Knowing Chia's track record. He started off negotiations with Koskinen's agent saying they are trading or losing Talbot for nothing so their plan was to go all in on Koskinen.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Likely one of the reasons why most expect Johnny to be gone when his contract is up.

Now, I'm not advocating giving a player what he simply wants, but make no mistake, there can be a cost associated with getting your best possible deal.

In fact, getting your best possible deal is seldom your actual best possible deal.

We will see. If Tre was selling winning and being competitive, he has the pressure to deliver on that. So far, so good this year at least.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

He's still eligible for an offer sheet. That's why I threw it out there. He still is after all, a "Free Agent."

Yeah, but you threw it out there like the difference is slight. It's not, it's a huge difference in the player's status and what they'll be able to negotiate.

[Buff]

I wondered if Chiarelli thought he was signing Koskinen for $4.5M for 3 years, not $4.5 per year for 3 years. However, that would have been a major coup and Chiarelli just isn't capable of making himself look good right now.

Can you imagine?

Chiarelli: Mr. Lowe, I signed Koskinen for 3 years. $4.5M! It's a major savings!

Lowe: $4.5M?!?! That's amazing!

Chiarelli: Yeah, I know.

Lowe: Wait, I thought you meant $4.5 total. This looks like it's $4.5/year.

Chiarelli: Let me see that... Um... oh... Yeah. yeah. Wait.. What did you say? I misheard you. Yes. $4.5M cap hit. How did I miss... Yeah. $4.5 average. It's a great... what did i say? Yes, It's a great savings. Look at Montreal. They've got Carey Price locked up long term for $8M per year.

Lowe: $10.5 per year

Chiarelli: Yes. and we're... (pulls out calculator) $6M per season cheaper! Can you believe that?

Lowe: Oh... okay. Then I guess that's still good.

[tvp2003]

This was posted in E=NG:

Originally Posted by Dion

https://twitter.com/user/status/1087519350662123521

The difference is that Saros is being paid to play like Jusse Saros. Koskinen is being paid to play like Pekka Rinne. What could go wrong?

It reminds of the Draisaitl deal. If he develops into a 1B centre, the deal is at market or slightly cheaper. If not, it's a horrible overpay with term. Same with Koskinen.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Robbob

That contract is going to age as well as the one Turek signed after his 11 game hot streak.

I'm thinking more....Vintage Khabibulin post-spinal injury.

The Oilers climbed over all opposition to get him locked up long-term!

Except he was old, injured and nobody else was in the running to sign him.

'Competing against themselves' is pretty much the only way the Oilers can win.

Even then though...

"The...uh....the Oilers....uh...find a way..."

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by GGG

<snip>...
It just speaks to poor GMing that he doesn't understand or use leverage. Yes its not his worst move but its another on the list that makes no sense.

Exactly. In virtually every move made by Chiarelli there has been some degradation in talent, some more than others.
Latest example Colby Cave to Ty Rattie.
Rattie is not good, but in a team starved for some kind of secondary scoring, Cave is even a downgrade on that.
Obviously this is a least worst example, but if in every case you downgrade talent just a little, over time you have the 2018/19 Oilers.
And let's face it, they were no good to begin with.

[Red]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Likely one of the reasons why most expect Johnny to be gone when his contract is up.

Now, I'm not advocating giving a player what he simply wants, but make no mistake, there can be a cost associated with getting your best possible deal.

In fact, getting your best possible deal is seldom your actual best possible deal.

Why? If the Flames offer him a UFA deal similar to others the Flames have as much of a chance as others. This rfa deal will have 0 effect on his decision. But it has a ton of effect on the Flames team for all those years.

Unless you are saying that JG feels cheated and is looking to screw Tre. In that case i think you are nuts.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Signing Koskinen at the beginning of the year, along with Chiasson are the only 2 actions out of dozens that were positive for Chia, and Koskinen only happened because Talbot is having such a bad year. Instead of thanking his good fortune that Koskinen prevented the Oilers from being 31st in the league and build on that with a reasonable extension, he gave Koskinen a blank cheque.

This is the only way I can see the negotiations:
Chia: "I want to sign you long term. You made me look pretty good and I want to lock you up now in case you may win a Vezina at some point, how much?"
Koskinen's agent to Koskinen: "Make sure to start your negotiation super high to eventually bargain down to what is good value, 2.5 x 2 is what we will fight up for"
Koskinen "I want 4.5 million a year and at least 3 years"
Chia: "Let me guess you want a NTC too?"
Koskinen: "Eh? Uh sure yes I want that too!"
Chia: "You drive a hard bargain...ok done! I always keep a few napkins handy to write a contract on just for this...4.5 million x 3, NTC but limited to 15 teams and not a team more!!"
Koskinen: "Wait, what?"
Koskinen's agent: " "

Awesome post. I wonder if Koskinen's fist ask was $4 million per year, and Chia had him penciled in at $5, do they just split the difference.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

This was posted in E=NG:



The difference is that Saros is being paid to play like Jusse Saros. Koskinen is being paid to play like Pekka Rinne. What could go wrong?

It reminds of the Draisaitl deal. If he develops into a 1B centre, the deal is at market or slightly cheaper. If not, it's a horrible overpay with term. Same with Koskinen.

If the point of tweet was about Brossoit (vs Saros) it's well made.
Brossoit 2018
10-1-1 record
2.01 GAA
0.943 S%
As stated earlier in the thread. Not qualifying Brossoit at league minimum looks pretty bad right now.
Otherwise Saros signed as RFA, which can't fairly be compared to UFA contracts.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Split98

Listening to Hockey Central, they're talking a lot about 'why now?' and I have a theory...

They are trading Talbot at the deadline (or losing him in the off-season), leaving them with 0 NHL goalies signed for next year
They know they're terrible, and have a pretty good idea of what goalies want to play in orange
With the numbers they might be speculating someone like Bobrovsky will want to sign with you, they know that what they saw in Koskinen would be their best case scenario
Koskinen and his agent have an idea of this as well, which is tough not to when they are asking you to re-sign 25-30 games into your first NHL season

If all that is true, Chia & Co are faced with over-paying now, or having 0 goalies in the off-season and over-paying more then... while also gambling that goalies choose to play on your team.

Even if you give them credit for being aware of the garbage they're putting on the ice and the league perception of their efforts... it's a pretty good sign that there's a lot more to come.

Here's the thing about that.

There are 62 jobs in the NHL goaltending market next year. The vast majority of those positions are already filled/claimed.

Now, there are WAY more guys looking for jobs than there are jobs. So a team looking to fill a job has the ability to look through all those who may be able to provide what they want filled. Obviously the Oilers know a little bit more about this guy than most others that will be out there, but there is no question there will be other options.

I haven't looked but I would wager that when that time rolls around you will find several G's with similar numbers (at seasons end) who are either close to the same age or younger and can (on paper) provide the same level of play that MK has shown thus far....at a much cheaper price AND shorter term.

The fact that the Oilers signed this guy to this deal AT THIS TIME, is mind boggling and simply unnecessary when you consider all the other options that will be available. Even if MK goes beast mode and loses no more than 3 or 4 games the rest of the way, this deal is still going to be there in April/May/June and even into July.

This is a list of guys who, right now, will be available to sign anywhere they want/can come July 1.

https://www.spotrac.com/nhl/free-agents/goaltender/ufa/

Right now, at minimum, there are 6 guys there that are far more established and a better track record than MK.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but I'm just floored once again at the inclusion of a 15 trade NTC on this.

Regardless of thoughts who's on the list, any form of NTC = an increase in player control on the contract, or decrease of team control on the asset. Simply boiled down, that increase in player control, has, or SHOULD have a monetary value attached to it. Meaning the player should be leaving some salary on the table in exchange for that extra control.

This means, Chia figured he was actually worth more than $4.5M AAV without an NTC. I have no idea what the market rate for that type of contract control is worth, but it's worth something and the Oilers clearly value him at over a $4.5M dollar player per year.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but I'm just floored once again at the inclusion of a 15 trade NTC on this.

Regardless of thoughts who's on the list, any form of NTC = an increase in player control on the contract, or decrease of team control on the asset. Simply boiled down, that increase in player control, has, or SHOULD have a monetary value attached to it. Meaning the player should be leaving some salary on the table in exchange for that extra control.

This means, Chia figured he was actually worth more than $4.5M AAV without an NTC. I have no idea what the market rate for that type of contract control is worth, but it's worth something and the Oilers clearly value him at over a $4.5M dollar player per year.

But a 15 team NTC is a big negotiating win for the Oilers. Koskinen's current contract has a NMC

NMC to 15 team NTC is great for the organization.