[confirmed] Flames will go after Derek Ryan in FA

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

Do you want to go into next season with the same bottom 6 we had last year, which happened to be the worst in the league? Because I don't.

While we do need another top 6 forward (Treliving said so himself today that he's gonna try and acquire another one), we also need to upgrade our bottom 6 and Ryan would be an excellent add from that standpoint

If you can't be creative and find a Derek Ryan level player between the ages of 24-29 in the minors or Europe, I question the pro scouting and I question the drafting and development.

July 1 is not how you address the bottom six. If they do foolishly go this route I can only pray it's 2 years.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by New Era

Bull####. Brouwer, for all his warts, has a history of being a productive NHL player. Ryan has two ####ing years under Bill Peters where he was marginally a contributing NHL player. For crying out loud, Ryan has a single season of 15 goals. Brouwer has met or exceeded that seven times. I hate Brouwer with the passion of 10,000 suns, but he’s is a better player than Ryan. He actually has some history beind his game. Ryan would not be in the NHL without the favorable playing time provided by Bill Peters. Put Ryan in Brouwer’s role and he doesn’t come close to those 30some points. He’s more of a 15-20 player in GG’s system.

You’re off on Brouwer.

Brouwer has long been an anchor, and the signing was thrashed from the moment it was rumoured to be happening and it has played out exactly that way.

Ryan is a good hockey player, and earned ice time.

Brouwer is a bad hockey player, and was given ice time for absolutely no reason.

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by FlamesNation23

I know some here dont like putting too much weight on what fans of carolina say about him but the fact is they know way more about how ryan was utilized under peters than we do. Its like us ripping on gg’s use of brouwer or stajan late in games. We saw it happen and it was bad.

I have no doubt that ryan is a better player than brouwer. However, carolina fans are clearly saying how ryan was peters go to guy. He would put him out on he 2nd pp and in ot. They dont think the player is bad but rather the deployment was very questionable. I can hope peters dosent do the same here and if utilized correctly, ryan would be a great add no doubt. However, old habits die hard and i just dont see this ending well. He is a depth player and if he signs here and takes time away from the better playmakers on this team, i will really question trelivings decision of giving peters the guys he wants.

I have more trust in what Carolina fans have to say about Derek Ryan than anyone else. They know first hand experience on him as a player, seems most have no issues with letting him go. If Peters used him as much as he did, its probably going to happen here too...for that I say no thanks.

[Calgary4LIfe]

It would be nice to know the actual underlying metrics. I just finished reading through the thread on HF, and there is a tonne of Canes fans saying fairly similar things about Ryan.


Some of the themes are:

• Weakest (physically) player in the league, and easily knocked-off the puck and never wins a battle along the boards
• Deployed with Skinner mostly, and thus that is where he got his points
• Rarely ever PK'd - he is not a solid PK'er
• Given ample amounts of offensive zone starts
• Not a 4th liner - will put up points with skilled players, but you can expect his points to drop massively when not joined at the hip with talented players
• Puts up a lot of points two seasons in a row when they were eliminated from the playoffs, but went through long droughts when they were in the thick of it
• Horrible in OT - didn't play much in OT, but when he did he was out there for 3 OT goals against

It would be interesting to see actual data rather than "underlying numbers look good". It isn't like they sound bitter - it really sounds like they are glad that Ryan is moving on, though most of the problems it seems stems from the fact that Peters overused him, ahead of more talented players in key situations.


I have no idea how much of the above is true, but it paints a vastly different picture than what we expect out of him. If any of the analytic gurus here who happens to have time on his hands may want to paint a fuller picture and either confirm or stamp out what seems to be a less than stellar picture of a free agent that we are about to sign.



They did say he has good hands and can play with skilled players - I mean, he would otherwise not have been able to put up as many points as he did.



One thing stood out to me - they say that his possession was incredible with Skinner, but that he got destroyed in goals against. One poster made the comment that he will pass it back and forth all day until someone takes a shot, but is horrible defensively.


Once again, there is only so much you can believe - losing seasons makes people irate and often the blame gets thrown around irrationally. It is just a lot of Canes fans expressing the same types of responses.

[TheoFleury]

Canes fans really do seem universal in their dislike for Ryan. It's to the point where I don't think I read a single positive thing about him on their board. They basically viewed him as a leech who benefited from playing with Skinner. Makes me nervous.

[Yrebmi]

Originally Posted by Mike F

Not disagreeing with anyone per se, but using this as a jumping off point to talk about face offs. . . .

For a number of years one of my most well worn critiques of the Flames was their continual failure to sign or develop a strong face off man, and the team's overall poor face off performance. Then I came across this article from Sports Illustrated, and was pretty shocked by the conclusions it presented. . . .

I have heard of these findings before.
I wonder if faceoff stats are so inconsequential when compared in powerplay/penalty kill situations only.

[AC]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

Canes fans really do seem universal in their dislike for Ryan. It's to the point where I don't think I read a single positive thing about him on their board. They basically viewed him as a leech who benefited from playing with Skinner. Makes me nervous.

I did a bit more digging and found some.

Regarding his potential trade value:

"I wouldn't trade him. He shows up pretty consistently, scores enough, and is a super-minor cap hit."

"Yeah, I’m not a Derek Ryan apologist by any means, but he’s more valuable to us than he is in a trade. He’s elite in the face-off circle, (as you said) scores enough, and provides good energy and grit. Personally, I just think he’s over-slotted by a line. He should be our 4C."

Can we talk about Derek Ryan a second

"I am just amazed by his play. He has been fantastic. It seems every time he is in a prime scoring position he takes advantage of it. This guy is 30 and making his first true run at being a regular NHLer and he hasn't looked back. It seems he has tons of chemistry with several different players as well."

"He's thirty and a rookie but plays like an up and coming hotshot. Love his play"

"I love Ryan so much! He plays like he wants to be here. Night end and night out he puts his body on the line and skates hard."

[442scotty]

I always worry about signing anyone who has a real good contract year but before that is just so so. IF we get Ryan Smith I hope he can keep his game going and we don't end up with another Brouwer on our hands. Sadly I suspect that Ryan Smith will naturally take his foot off the gas having received his retirement contract. When will these GM's learn!

I would much rather see the team concentrate on integrating the young guys ... Dube, Mangiapane, Gawdin? Foo, into the lineup.

[bzoo02]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

My only issue is where does he slot in? 4th line C? Or does Jankowski get demoted to 4th line? If we don't give Jankowski the time, he'll never turn into the top 6 center that we've wanted him to become since we've drafted him.

If Jankowski can't supplant Ryan then that's on him. The whole idea of bringing in established vets is to see what the flames actually have in their prospects.

If the kids can't surpass the vets in camp or on call ups then they don't get qualifying offers as we've just recently seen.

This is the beauty of the draft, if a player isn't working out as you'd hoped you can cut bait. Sure it sucks that you've wasted a pick but that's what Free Agent vets are there for, plugging the holes that a team can't fill internally.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by 442scotty

I always worry about signing anyone who has a real good contract year but before that is just so so. IF we get Ryan Smith I hope he can keep his game going and we don't end up with another Brouwer on our hands. Sadly I suspect that Ryan Smith will naturally take his foot off the gas having received his retirement contract. When will these GM's learn!

I would much rather see the team concentrate on integrating the young guys ... Dube, Mangiapane, Gawdin? Foo, into the lineup.

Are you ok?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by 442scotty

I always worry about signing anyone who has a real good contract year but before that is just so so. IF we get Ryan Smith I hope he can keep his game going and we don't end up with another Brouwer on our hands. Sadly I suspect that Ryan Smith will naturally take his foot off the gas having received his retirement contract. When will these GM's learn!

I would much rather see the team concentrate on integrating the young guys ... Dube, Mangiapane, Gawdin? Foo, into the lineup.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

Literally 99% of the analytics community was calling the Brouwer signing a complete and utter failure from the moment he signed. He had dragged his teammates down throughout his entire career and was on the wrong side of 30 when he signed, which is a HUGE deal for that type of player.

We all saw this coming.

Ryan is the complete opposite of Brouwer. Much better player.

First, I hate the advanced analytics garbage. Advanced analytics don’t mean squat. I thought people were finally going to clue in on that with Bingo’s infamous deep dive into the advanced analytics which proved the Flames were just unlucky and were certain to make the playoffs. It wasn’t a failure in systems or personnel deployment, it was just bad luckp and the advanced analytics proved it. Advanced analytics have turned into ways of “proving” bad players/teams aren’t as bad as they appear or perform in the measures that matter. The adage will have to be changed from “there’s lies, damn lies, and statistics” to “there’s lies, damn lies, and advanced analytics.”

If Ryan is such a great player why the hell did it take him until age 30 to play in the NHL? I would be extremely hesitant to endorse a player like that, and especially say that he’s a better player to one who has been in the league for 763 games. Brouwer is not a fan favorite, and the game is definitely passing him by, but he at least has a track record behind him of being a contributing member to some successful teams. Ryan does not.

The real annoying thing about this Ryan discussion is people refusing to acknowledge that, like Gulutzan with Brouwer, Peters played favorites with Ryan and gave him opportunity ahead of others. Peters played a 4th liner ahead of better players on the team, because Peters liked Ryan. Hurricane fans will tell you it was not earned ice time, it was given ice time, just like Brouwer got with Gulutzan. For all the pissing and moaning that went on here about the Brouwerplay, or how much ice time Brouwer got, or even how undeserving Ferland was to play with Gaudreau and Monahan, there are some here asking for the signing of a player who got similar treatment from our new coach. I can’t believe anyone would support bringing in a player like Ryan, who was obviously the coach’s favorite.

Personally, I hate it when coaches come in and bring their players from other teams with them. Especially garbage role players. We saw how successful Gulutzan was with that, and what a distraction is was. We have better talent in our own system. Stop bringing in crap players from other failing teams and think that will make our team better.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by New Era

...The real annoying thing about this Ryan discussion is people refusing to acknowledge that, like Gulutzan with Brouwer, Peters played favorites with Ryan and gave him opportunity ahead of others. Peters played a 4th liner ahead of better players on the team, because Peters liked Ryan. Hurricane fans will tell you it was not earned ice time, it was given ice time, just like Brouwer got with Gulutzan...

Your insane ramblings notwithstanding, you have made this claim a few times now, and I am honestly curious: which “better players” were being sidelined in favour of Derek Ryan in Carolina? Have you looked at their roster? It is not exactly a murderer’s row of NHL talent up front.

I suspect more likely that Ryan got a lot of ice time and played up the lineup because Coach Peters’s options were really limited.

[442scotty]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

Are you ok?

I am but the real question is are you?

[442scotty]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Your insane ramblings notwithstanding.

Is there really a need for this kind of stuff? This forum is getting pretty bad with the personal shots. And I guess my comment applies?

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Your insane ramblings notwithstanding, you have made this claim a few times now, and I am honestly curious: which “better players” were being sidelined in favour of Derek Ryan in Carolina? Have you looked at their roster? It is not exactly a murderer’s row of NHL talent up front.

I suspect more likely that Ryan got a lot of ice time and played up the lineup because Coach Peters’s options were really limited.

I agree with this. Plus this is very much a results based business. If a player is reliable, consistent, and produces then why would the coach not put them out. This is far from a player just taking minutes, it is a player given minutes because he has been effective.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

You’re off on Brouwer.

Brouwer has long been an anchor, and the signing was thrashed from the moment it was rumoured to be happening and it has played out exactly that way.

Ryan is a good hockey player, and earned ice time.

Brouwer is a bad hockey player, and was given ice time for absolutely no reason.

The concern is that it's a virtual certainty that Ryan's best days are behind him. I understand that people are saying he doesn't have a lot of miles on him, but let's not act like he suddenly started playing hockey at 27.

He turns 32 in December and this is typically the age when players start falling off the map. If you sign him, you should be under the assumption that he won't be as good this season as he was last season.

To me, anything more than 2 years at 1.5 AAV is too much.

This is the kind of player that loses all benefit to the team when you pay him too much.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Your insane ramblings notwithstanding, you have made this claim a few times now, and I am honestly curious: which “better players” were being sidelined in favour of Derek Ryan in Carolina? Have you looked at their roster? It is not exactly a murderer’s row of NHL talent up front.

I suspect more likely that Ryan got a lot of ice time and played up the lineup because Coach Peters’s options were really limited.

Ya that's how I see it. Ya Ryan, probably shouldn't be getting 15 minutes a night. But Carolina had no one better to give those minutes too.

From what I've seen, they either wanted to try out an AHLer or drop Lindholm to 3C. Neither of those were better options.

[Roof-Daddy]

Relevant FN article by our own Freeway:

Article Link

If he signs here, it won’t be to play fourth line center. His cap hit will likely be somewhere around $2 million and that would probably place him as a third line center behind Monahan and Backlund, jostling with Mark Jankowski for ice time.

There’s not much wrong with that concept, though. Jankowski’s still super young and having a more veteran player who’s a bit more established as a scorer to push him makes a lot of sense – Peters and Brad Treliving probably would like Jankowski to grow and earn his ice time, and a lack of bottom six competition is one of the big reasons the Flames missed the playoffs.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Relevant FN article by our own Freeway:

Article Link

When does cap hit = line placement?