Francis with Kerr: Who is going?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Didn't he also lead the league defensemen in goals

Scoring in one of the dimensions of hockey. Stopping the other team from scoring is the other dimension. Hamilton is a one-dimensional player. The Flames have too many one-dimensional players.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Have any of those players shown any improvement in their two-way play in the last two years? There's nothing wrong with a couple guys in the core who don't bring anything to the table except scoring. But you will never get anywhere in the playoffs unless you're confident putting most of your core players out on the ice when you're trying to protect a lead.

Toews, Crosby, Keith, Hossa, Kopitar, Doughty, Bergeron, Marchand, Chara, Malkin. All players a coach wouldn't hesitate to put on the ice against the other team's top line when protecting a lead with 4 minutes to go in game 7. Can you honestly say the same about Gaudreau, Monahan, and Hamilton? Some fans dream of Hamilton being a stud defenceman, but the guy has been in the NHL for six seasons and he still isn't trusted enough to kill penalties. What does that tell you?

More of the same in terms of problems with this overall take.

I'd say since Hamilton has moved to playing top line minutes, yes he has improved.

I'd also say Monahan has as well on the defensive side of the game year over year.

I'd also say the list of players you mentioned largely didn't play that way at 23 and 24.

Finally, Hamilton doesn't kill penalties because they have a lot of d-men to choose from. I don't see it as a huge indictment with more experienced defenders in our top four.

Your take on this is way over-sensationalized/dramatized.

Just a post ago you're slamming the team of being mediocre three seasons ago. We're still in the stages of rebuilding, and it's a long, non-linear process.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Hamilton is a one-dimensional player. The Flames have too many one-dimensional players.

I dont think Dougie is one dimensional. He's super effective 5-on-5. He's a great skater (dimension one), has a good shot (dimension two), can see the ice well (dimension three), has solid gap control (dimension four), is good at anticipation (dimension five).

In fact, the only place he is seemingly mediocre is down low in his own zone...

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Didn't he also lead the league defensemen in goals

He did, and he is loaded with talent and upside. But I think the following things have to also be considered:

1) we are much deeper on defense, both with the roster and with prospects, than we are up front

2) we have too many players that a re passive (and he is one of them)

3) you have to give up a huge asset to get a huge asset

4) we need another top C, IMO

I think a case can be made to trade Hamilton if the return makes sense.

Though I also think we should see what the team looks like with another coach first. I would also like to have Fox signed before trading Hamilton. But like Mick says, you can't always get what you want.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

He did, and he is loaded with talent and upside. But I think the following things have to also be considered:

1) we are much deeper on defense, both with the roster and with prospects, than we are up front

2) we have too many players that a re passive (and he is one of them)

3) you have to give up a huge asset to get a huge asset

4) we need another top C, IMO

I think a case can be made to trade Hamilton if the return makes sense.

Though I also think we should see what the team looks like with another coach first. I would also like to have Fox signed before trading Hamilton. But like Mick says, you can't always get what you want.

I agree. If Ramus and Kylington and Valimaki progress quickly, its not inconceivable to trade one of Gio, Brodie and Hamilton. And Hamilton probably gets the best return.

But you do have to see how the team looks under a new coach, you do have to see how free agency turns out (flames probably a 1-in-5 to 1-in-10 chance of landing tavares).

[oldschoolcalgary]

i just hope that the Flames, regardless of whom they trade, ensure that they deal quality for quality...

do not water down trades with a bunch of spare parts...

the only exception would be reloading with a bunch of high picks - like the deals we made for Hamilton or Hamonic...

if its a hockey trade, then you keep it as a player for player trade...or a proverbial "something for now and something for later".

Do NOT package a star with 2-3 other components to get a return of 4-5 other players... that is usually a recipe for disaster, especially for the Flames organization...

EDIT: trading Hamilton would piss me off a bit, as we should have drafted Barzal or Connor if we were just going to trade him 2 years later.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

Just a post ago you're slamming the team of being mediocre three seasons ago. We're still in the stages of rebuilding, and it's a long, non-linear process.

Rebuilding teams don't trade away first and second round picks by the fistful.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

Has any team in the past decade won without a strong 1-2 punch up the middle?

I've seen a few posts essentially pointing the finger at Monahan, a guy who played through significant injuries and who I could almost feel wince in pain when he received a hard pass.

This thread already reads a bit like a witch hunt but I'm wondering why Backlund isn't getting more grief. The organization put a lot of faith in him with a fairly generous contract, and I didn't see enough a high enough compete level this season. I saw a lot of lackadaisical play in the defensive zone and far too much coasting.

This is a big worry for me as well, when it comes to this teams potential to compete for a Cup. Strength up the middle, while decent, certainly isn't elite in my mind. That's why Bennett flat-lining as a center really sucks. I had hoped he'd be at least as good as Mony by now and on his way to being a 70-80 point #1 center, and yet still not cost near as much as some of the other elite #1 centers around the league do. Maybe one day he'll suddenly click, I dunno. Couturier never cracked 40 points or 15 goals in his career until this his 25 year old season (draft +7) where he snagged a solid 31 goals and 75 points. Seems unlikely Bennett will ever do that though, especially since he's not even playing center anymore.

Maybe Treliving will perform a miracle this off season and land us Tavares, but that seems just as unlikely as anyone in our system blossoming into a legit #1 C over the next year or two, that can be a solid 1-2 punch with Mony.

[Tbull8]

Last year someone threw out the idea of a Gaudreau - Hall swap and was laughed out of here. In hindsight that wouldn't have been too far off. I love Johnny but Hall looks just as dominant once he got the Oil stench off him.

[sempuki]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Rebuilding teams don't trade away first and second round picks by the fistful.

Precisely how many picks fit in *your* fist..??

[dirk diggler]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Scoring in one of the dimensions of hockey. Stopping the other team from scoring is the other dimension. Hamilton is a one-dimensional player. The Flames have too many one-dimensional players.

if you can get what so many people think you can for Dougie, you do it. he isn't a great all round defensemen, as you said he is one dimensional. his compete level is inconsistent at best

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Rebuilding teams don't trade away first and second round picks by the fistful.

If it lands a 21 year old top pairing d-man, they do. Again you're just tossing out over-dramatized notions devoid of context.

Any way you want to spin it, you trying to suggest it's dumbfounding the team was mediocre three seasons ago when all of these young players now were even younger is beyond reaching.

[Mister Yamoto]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

Again you're just tossing out over-dramatized notions devoid of context.

Over-dramatized? Devoid of context?

Good gawd. Have you ever read any of your own posts?

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

Over-dramatized? Devoid of context?

Good gawd. Have you ever read any of your own posts?

Feel free to post the parts of what I said that you take issue with. Here, or anywhere else.

Otherwise what's the point of a drive-by fluff comment like this?

Suggesting we weren't still re-building several seasons ago when we traded picks for Hamilton is severely lacking context.

[Calgary4LIfe]

How do we measure someone's GaF (give-a-####) quotient?

Some of the opinions flying around here are horrible takes.

Trade Gaudreau? The guy that leads the team and looks emotionally invested every time he is out there, and accounts for a disproportionate amount of the team's goals?

Monahan, who was playing not with one but two injuries, and still managed to do decent?

Ferland who actually sticks up for his teammates (like Stajan), and plays well with everyone on the top line and has so many facets to his game?

Hamilton who is tied with the goal scoring lead for defencemen?

Bennett - who didn't put up that many points - but was a complete ball of hate through this stretch drive and stood out to me with his emotion?

Yeah, this season sucked. It sucked real bad. But let's just throw everyone under the bus here.

Maybe it is Gulutzan that is the problem here? Remember his message to Ferland early last year? "Every game, I want to see 3 hits and 3 shots on net. That's your goal." Maybe he has similar goals for other players on the ice? Maybe he forces the team to play for CORSI events first and foremost within the confines of his system?

Maybe the players are all so focused on doing what this coach is telling them to do out there, and they are actually doing it. Is that letting down the team? Or is that being a good soldier and a good teammate and just being 'coach-able'?

Before anyone from the core - Brodie included - gets jettisoned off this team to recoup assets (seriously? people actually want to trade Gaudreau to recoup assets? Do we care where exactly we rank on some stupid prospect watch list?? Or do we care where we rank where it matters the most - the standings?), I want to see what this team can do with a good coach. AV is available. Sutter is available. Ruff will probably be available. Perhaps Trotz. Perhaps another handful of guys. I want to see how this team does with an actual experienced coach with an actual track record of success before we start firing people into the sun.

Change the coach. See how things are. This team has a fantastic mobile defence, with a top line that is just as good as other team's top lines, and just needs a fricken decent system to make use of the actual players. Have the defence support the offence more. Transition quicker. You will quickly see a tough to defend against Calgary Flames.

Have a coach that can actually make a team look like they are playing decent defence too. You will then see a team that gets out of the first round again. Hartley did it with a crap team for the most part, and people think he was a crap coach? Get someone better than Hartley. Stop hiring Mike "retired on the job" Keenan, Brent "I like putting square pegs in round holes" Sutter and Glen "CORSI!!" Gulutzan, and get an actual smart coach who is both a motivator and tactician - someone with an actual track record. Stop hiring the "best coach not in the NHL". Hire an actual proven good coach. Get a scoring (not even elite - just a guy who can get 20-30 goals) RW, get a coach, and watch this team do a complete 180.

[cannon7]

Would like to see what a real coach can do with this roster before cleaning house. Although if there are some obvious bad actors in the locker room....

[jlh2640]

Glen is a good man, he should not be retained. But I like him.

[spuzzum]

Adam Larsson got Taylor Hall. Surely Brodie or Gio gets you close to the same level of quality. Hamilton gets you probably even more. What do you need more - a quality all around center in the top 6 or an all star winger that can pot 30 or 40 goals. I'm intrigued to hear some names given it's the smartest thing for the Flames to trade from a position of strength given the prospects that should now be ready.

[nik-]

Just because one notoriously bad trading GM makes a bad trade, doesn't mean another will.

[GullFoss]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that this isn't one of those "additions by subtraction" off-seasons. It's going to be addition by addition. We don't need to trade anyone of note, because most core players had decent seasons.

We need to replace personnel like Gully, Stajan, Versteeg, Brouwer and Stone with better players. Some of those will come in house - Foo, Andersson and maybe someone else - Dube or Mangiapane perhaps. The other two replacements will be on the open market - Sutter or AV in the coaching arena. And then we need a top-3 forward via UFA.

I think we're going to be more surprised by the top 3 forward than who comes in. It's gonna be huge. Whomever comes in - its going to be their team