So from what I can tell searching around the net November 28th looks to be the date, apparently there is some reveal on ABC the 21st or 24th can't remember which, and they are supposed to come out shortly after that.
__________________ "In brightest day, in blackest night / No evil shall escape my sight / Let those who worship evil's might / Beware my power, Green Lantern's light!"
The only thing that makes me not sad about this movie but that there isn't a part in it for Ian McDiarmid.
It would have been nice to see him get a cameo as Palpatine one last time even if it was for one scene towards the end when Vader reports that the Death Star Plans have been stolen.
for me it would have been nice for a couple of reasons. First of all Ian is not getting any younger and it might be a while before the movies swing back to an Imperial versus Rebels storyline again. Second of all because Ian is a huge fan and very enthusiast about Star Wars and the character of Palpatine. And third of all because even though the Prequels were a bit of a dissapointment, his portrayal of Palpatine is just amazing both pre and post butt head look.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Not sure if this was mentioned, but the Nissan Rogue has released a Star Wars Limited Edition series at LA Auto Show.
There will be 400 available in Canada. The Star Wars Limited Edition include:
- Imperial and Rebel insignas on rear fenders and in the cup holders
- Star Wars LE badging in the door sills, bumper ledge, and floor mats
- Death Trooper Helmet included with each purchase!!!
Article: https://www.inverse.com/article/2388...-star-wars-car
The only thing that makes me not sad about this movie but that there isn't a part in it for Ian McDiarmid.
It would have been nice to see him get a cameo as Palpatine one last time even if it was for one scene towards the end when Vader reports that the Death Star Plans have been stolen.
for me it would have been nice for a couple of reasons. First of all Ian is not getting any younger and it might be a while before the movies swing back to an Imperial versus Rebels storyline again. Second of all because Ian is a huge fan and very enthusiast about Star Wars and the character of Palpatine. And third of all because even though the Prequels were a bit of a dissapointment, his portrayal of Palpatine is just amazing both pre and post butt head look.
He was definitely the strong point in the prequels, the way he manipulated Anakin carried the movies.
Those few scenes redeemed the movies imo, it actually added a lot of pretext and undertones because a lot of what was going on wasn't said and it added to the themes of the story. When Palpatine was sitting with the Jedi and Obi-Wan was the only one picking up on his slippery politician nature, that was some really good stuff.
I'll watch the prequels again just for those scenes where Palpatine was exercising his dark side manipulation. The way every action he took was slowly diminishing the force powers of the Jedi gave the movies a very dense atmosphere and actually quite a lot of context to every scene.
I think people were too hard on the prequels, there was a decent amount of depth to certain aspects of the movies especially in regards to Palpatine and his influence on the entire universe. One scene he would do something and the next those actions would create a ripple like effect that many people missed. His influence was everywhere like a hidden hand and Ian played it perfectly. A lot of people ripped on Darth Maul for being silent but in the context of Palpatines hitman he actually fit the bill very well, a dark lord would have a silent henchman as he is pulling the strings.
He was definitely the strong point in the prequels, the way he manipulated Anakin carried the movies.
Those few scenes redeemed the movies imo, it actually added a lot of pretext and undertones because a lot of what was going on wasn't said and it added to the themes of the story. When Palpatine was sitting with the Jedi and Obi-Wan was the only one picking up on his slippery politician nature, that was some really good stuff.
I'll watch the prequels again just for those scenes where Palpatine was exercising his dark side manipulation. The way every action he took was slowly diminishing the force powers of the Jedi gave the movies a very dense atmosphere and actually quite a lot of context to every scene.
I think people were too hard on the prequels, there was a decent amount of depth to certain aspects of the movies especially in regards to Palpatine and his influence on the entire universe. One scene he would do something and the next those actions would create a ripple like effect that many people missed. His influence was everywhere like a hidden hand and Ian played it perfectly. A lot of people ripped on Darth Maul for being silent but in the context of Palpatines hitman he actually fit the bill very well, a dark lord would have a silent henchman as he is pulling the strings.
Palpatine's rise was the best part of the sequels and it wasn't close. and Ian played it so well, he said it was like playing Iago.
The worst part of Disney throwing away the EU was that three books, Labyrinth of evil, Darth Plagueis and Dark Lord the Rise of Darth Vader were stricken from existence, even the ROTS was outstanding in terms of filling out Sideous/ Palpatine.
There was one scene in ROTS where Dooku was preparing to fight Anakin and Kenobi and not realizing how badly he'd been used where he looked at Anakin and Kenobi through the force.
In Obi-wan he saw a calm bright meadow, in Anakin he saw a storm cloud with lightning. With Palpatine he saw a perfectly black event horizon.
He also thought that Palpatine was the perfect opportunist, if a door was locked, you'd find Palpatine looking through windows to find his way in.
I believe that Palpatine escaped detection as a Sith Lord not because he was so powerful that he could shield himself from detection, but because he didn't really use his dark powers all that often. Every thing he did was a political manipulation.
He manipulated the trade federation into blockading Naboo not through force intimidation, or even blackmail, but by convincing senators that trade routes needed to be taxed, then he convinced the Trade Federation that the best way to break the tax was to blockade a peaeful world in Naboo, which happened to be Palpatine's home world.
Then when the Trade federation invaded he managed to create a strong wave of sympathy for himself while convincing everyone including the queen that the senate was hopelessly corrupt and weak and used Padme to get a vote on non confidence.
Even when the trade federation lost, he manipulated the courts to make them look weak and corrupt.
At the same time he manipulated Syfo-Dias that trouble was coming in the form of a civil war and convinced him that the Jedi were in peril and an army was needed, and then once the army was started he hid it from view.
With Dooku he didn't corrupt him with Sith power, he played on a disgruntled Jedi who saw the corruption of the Jedi and the darkening of the Force and decided that the galaxy and the Jedi needed to be fixed. In his mind he thought that the Jedi would bow to his master and form a Sith army that would bring order to the galaxy and put the power in the hands of the people that would greatly benefit the galaxy.
He also let Dooku slip that a Sith was behind the scenes running the government which created more fear and paranoia in the Jedi.
At the same time he was doing this, he and Dooku were fighting a war against each other and drawing it out, and forcing the Jedi into a fight that they should have never been involved in.
At the same time we saw his greatest manipulation in hiring a bounty hunter to kill Padme, because whether she died or not it got her out of the way and let him manipulate the senate to extend his term and give him emergency powers for the duration of the emergency.
On the Anakin side he knew that Anakin had attachment issues so he forced him and Padme into closer quarters because he knew that they would fall in love.
Then in the third movie you saw a lot of things come to a head.
But he wasn't using the force to do it.
The Jedi lost their ability to see through the force (The dark side of the force shrouds everything) not because of something that Palpatine did to the Jedi. But because the Jedi in becoming generals and becoming consumed by the fear of their loss of power lost their way.
At the same time, Palpatine manipulated more and more powers and this caused the Senate to slightly rebel, with the petition that Padme signed on behalf of 2000 senators. Now he had the ability to really show the corruption of the Senate. Here I am trying to win a war against evil and I'm being stabbed in the back.
On top of that he knew that Anakin would turn him in once he revealed himself. so he did, and he converted Anakin not with the Darkside but with words and playing on his fear and his paranoia and his desire not to be shackled by the Jedi. And Anakin did exactly what Palpatine wanted he did the right thing and went to the Jedi.
And then the Jedi foolishly attacked, which fell right into Palpatines jedi trap, the Jedi attacked democracy itself or what was left of it. And then Mace decided to do the very un-jedi thing and Anakin reacted in a very jedi way. He stopped Mace from murdering a man and disarmed him. And then finally we saw the darkside of Palpatine who closed the deal by showing Anakin the true power of the Dark Side.
But up until then, this was all Palaptine the politician who manipulated everything with guile and ruthlessness, all while appearing to be a kindly public servant.
If you look at what Palpatine did.
Manipulated the trade federation
Created an army that would serve him in killing the Jedi and becoming the imperial military
Making the Senate look corrupt
Making the Jedi look like they wanted to destroy democracy
Killing the Jedi and justifying it as a defense of democracy.
Corrupting Anakin and turning him to the darkside.
That was all Palpatine not Sidious that was all political will and strategy and not the force.
The death of Qui-gon and Maul. The manipulation of Dooku and his death
Taking the most powerful Jedi and probably force user and breaking him and making him subservient. you could argue that that was Sidious.
The Jedi couldn't see or detect the Sith, because Palpatine didn't need to be a Sith to take over the Galaxy.
That's what made him different then the Darth Banes, and Revans and Plageous's of the world in that tey were to dependant on the darkside and the Jedi eventually found them.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
The Following User Says Thank You to CaptainCrunch For This Useful Post:
I appreciate your post, I do think that he was using his force powers the entire time though. Reason being because when Palpatine would manipulate, coerce and move his chess pieces in plain sight the Jedi were weakened nearly instantly.
His actions had an immediate impact on the force balance in the entire universe, they couldn't detect his powers because he was effectively weakening them. It was hinted at with how the Jedi couldn't detect the existence of the clone army, Obi-Wan and Yoda both recognized their force powers were significantly reduced and that something was wrong. Not a small imbalance but a drastic change that saw the rise of the Sith.
They just couldn't tell where it was coming from because Palpatine was so powerful and effective, he used his powers to manipulate the Jedi into viewing things differently than they actually were. When the council was sitting with Palpatine Obi-Wan could sense something but Palpatines true strength was his ability to misdirect and confuse. Obi-Wan was so attuned that his instincts were trying to help him but Palpatines powers of manipulation were that much more powerful.
Even at the onset of EP 1 Obi-Wan should've recognized there was someone powerful in the senate trying to destroy the Jedi but Palpatine effectively clouded their vision.
Frequently their inability to recognize the obvious was reinforced because of how Palpatine was effecting the universe, his power was so strong it was permeating the events everywhere. It was like he was in every scene, every single move the Sith made weakened the light side of the force and Palpatine was controlling it all the entire time with his powers of manipulation. Every sentence he uttered was a lie and an act of manipulation and these lies had a direct impact on the force where each successful manipulation saw the Jedi weakened so he had to be using the force or it wouldn't be effecting the balance in the universe.
I appreciate your post, I do think that he was using his force powers the entire time though. Reason being because when Palpatine would manipulate, coerce and move his chess pieces in plain sight the Jedi were weakened nearly instantly.
His actions had an immediate impact on the force balance in the entire universe, they couldn't detect his powers because he was effectively weakening them. It was hinted at with how the Jedi couldn't detect the existence of the clone army, Obi-Wan and Yoda both recognized their force powers were significantly reduced and that something was wrong. Not a small imbalance but a drastic change that saw the rise of the Sith.
They just couldn't tell where it was coming from because Palpatine was so powerful and effective, he used his powers to manipulate the Jedi into viewing things differently than they actually were. When the council was sitting with Palpatine Obi-Wan could sense something but Palpatines true strength was his ability to misdirect and confuse. Obi-Wan was so attuned that his instincts were trying to help him but Palpatines powers of manipulation were that much more powerful.
Even at the onset of EP 1 Obi-Wan should've recognized there was someone powerful in the senate trying to destroy the Jedi but Palpatine effectively clouded their vision.
Frequently their inability to recognize the obvious was reinforced because of how Palpatine was effecting the universe, his power was so strong it was permeating the events everywhere. It was like he was in every scene, every single move the Sith made weakened the light side of the force and Palpatine was controlling it all the entire time with his powers of manipulation. Every sentence he uttered was a lie and an act of manipulation and these lies had a direct impact on the force where each successful manipulation saw the Jedi weakened so he had to be using the force or it wouldn't be effecting the balance in the universe.
I like your post and I really don't disagree. However I have this theory about the whole clouded force with the Jedi.
The Jedi were no longer serving the force.
The key difference between the light and the dark side of the force to me is this.
The Jedi serve the will of the force, they view the force as a companion and a mentor.
The Sith seek to enslave the force and subvert it to their will
When all the warning signs were there in Phantom Menace the Jedi council was like "Nah, if the Sith had returned we would have felt it". They didn't feel it because they were ignoring the force, in a sense they had become Sith like in that they believed that they were the masters of the Force.
In Clone Wars Obi-Wan and Yoda talked about how the Jedi had become arrogant, even when Dooku plainly told Obi-Wan that a Sith Lord was ruling the Republic, Obi-wan and later the Jedi Council basically said, nah, we would have felt it.
Then the Clone Wars came and the Jedi stopped serving the Force and the Will of the Force and began to serve the Republic as Generals and Commanders. So of course the force became clouded to them, they had lost their connection to it. Palpatine might have pushed on that as you said and helped that shroud come down, but at the end of the day, Palpatine bought the Jedi down through guile.
Now here's where it gets interesting. The one thing that we know about Palpatine was he was not only extremely powerful in the Force. But like Anakin was the so called chosen one, I firmly believe that Palpatine was so powerful that he was the counter chosen one. The son of Satan to the Son of God. But as he got more an more arrogant, we still heard him say "Everything is going as I have forseen", but he forgot the lesson that he gave Yoda in the clone wars "You're arrogance blinds you".
In the end Palpatine's arrogance blinded him. His visions were "Misinterpreted" very much as Yoda thought the prophesy was "Misinterpreted". The telling moment was when Vader announced that he detected his son was with the rebels, "Strange that I didn't feel that". so Palpatine fell into the same trap that the Jedi did. Arrogance blinded him just as arrogance blinded the Jedi.
In the book Revenge of the Sith when Yoda was fighting Sidious he had a utter moment of clarity.
While the Jedi had spent the last thousand years preparing to fight the Sith, they had trained for the last war. In the meantime the Sith in their self imposed exile had not only studied the darkside, but they had studied the Jedi and because of that evolved and changed. The Jedi tried to fight the Sith from a 1000 years ago, whereas the Sith were completely different and didn't just rely on the darkside of the force. They learned to manipulate the system, to use guile and manipulate from the shadows. They didn't fight with light sabres and lightning. They fought with procedures and corruption and lies and plans.
Also the rule of two had a big factor in this change. The Sith had spent a century of study in craving power, each apprentice became greater then their master who was cast aside. Zannah became more powerful then Bane, Cognus more powerful then Zannah and so on until Plagues was more power ful then his master and Palpatine surpassed Plageus. It forced continued growth and evolution.
All out of a desire for not only revenge. But to bring peace and order to the galaxy. That was always Palpatines motivation, and then once he accomplished that he would rule it as he saw fit.
Dark times don't simply emerge, Sidious. Enlightened beings, guiding intelligences manipulate events to bring about a storm that will deliver power into the hands of an elite group willing to make the hard choices the Republic fears to make. Beings may elect their leaders, but the Force has elected us."
―Darth Plagueis, to Darth Sidious[src]
Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you; tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face; tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you; and tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you…"
―Darth Plagueis[src]
You must begin by gaining power over yourself; then another; then a group, an order, a world, a species, a group of species... finally, the galaxy itself.”
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Did anyone watch the Disney World special on ABC last night? There was supposed to be something new from Rogue One on there, or was that just the announcement of the tickets going on sale?
__________________
Turn up the good, turn down the suck!
I like your post and I really don't disagree. However I have this theory about the whole clouded force with the Jedi.
The Jedi were no longer serving the force.
The key difference between the light and the dark side of the force to me is this.
The Jedi serve the will of the force, they view the force as a companion and a mentor.
The Sith seek to enslave the force and subvert it to their will
When all the warning signs were there in Phantom Menace the Jedi council was like "Nah, if the Sith had returned we would have felt it". They didn't feel it because they were ignoring the force, in a sense they had become Sith like in that they believed that they were the masters of the Force.
In Clone Wars Obi-Wan and Yoda talked about how the Jedi had become arrogant, even when Dooku plainly told Obi-Wan that a Sith Lord was ruling the Republic, Obi-wan and later the Jedi Council basically said, nah, we would have felt it.
Then the Clone Wars came and the Jedi stopped serving the Force and the Will of the Force and began to serve the Republic as Generals and Commanders. So of course the force became clouded to them, they had lost their connection to it. Palpatine might have pushed on that as you said and helped that shroud come down, but at the end of the day, Palpatine bought the Jedi down through guile.
Now here's where it gets interesting. The one thing that we know about Palpatine was he was not only extremely powerful in the Force. But like Anakin was the so called chosen one, I firmly believe that Palpatine was so powerful that he was the counter chosen one. The son of Satan to the Son of God. But as he got more an more arrogant, we still heard him say "Everything is going as I have forseen", but he forgot the lesson that he gave Yoda in the clone wars "You're arrogance blinds you".
In the end Palpatine's arrogance blinded him. His visions were "Misinterpreted" very much as Yoda thought the prophesy was "Misinterpreted". The telling moment was when Vader announced that he detected his son was with the rebels, "Strange that I didn't feel that". so Palpatine fell into the same trap that the Jedi did. Arrogance blinded him just as arrogance blinded the Jedi.
In the book Revenge of the Sith when Yoda was fighting Sidious he had a utter moment of clarity.
While the Jedi had spent the last thousand years preparing to fight the Sith, they had trained for the last war. In the meantime the Sith in their self imposed exile had not only studied the darkside, but they had studied the Jedi and because of that evolved and changed. The Jedi tried to fight the Sith from a 1000 years ago, whereas the Sith were completely different and didn't just rely on the darkside of the force. They learned to manipulate the system, to use guile and manipulate from the shadows. They didn't fight with light sabres and lightning. They fought with procedures and corruption and lies and plans.
Also the rule of two had a big factor in this change. The Sith had spent a century of study in craving power, each apprentice became greater then their master who was cast aside. Zannah became more powerful then Bane, Cognus more powerful then Zannah and so on until Plagues was more power ful then his master and Palpatine surpassed Plageus. It forced continued growth and evolution.
All out of a desire for not only revenge. But to bring peace and order to the galaxy. That was always Palpatines motivation, and then once he accomplished that he would rule it as he saw fit.
Dark times don't simply emerge, Sidious. Enlightened beings, guiding intelligences manipulate events to bring about a storm that will deliver power into the hands of an elite group willing to make the hard choices the Republic fears to make. Beings may elect their leaders, but the Force has elected us."
―Darth Plagueis, to Darth Sidious[src]
Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you; tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face; tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you; and tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you…"
―Darth Plagueis[src]
You must begin by gaining power over yourself; then another; then a group, an order, a world, a species, a group of species... finally, the galaxy itself.”
Yeah I think you're pretty close to hitting it right on the head. The story to me was always an attempt to describe what evil is and how it works. The way you describe the influence of will and arrogance was a major part of that. Agree about the prophecy part as well.
What I really like about the movies is how meaningful small moments actually were. Everything was planned thematically to tell this moralistic story of the nature of good and evil.
How much the Jedi were culpable? Probably a significant amount, there were moments a simple adherence to a basic moral compass would have helped but they just plowed ahead.
Hey this kid can be the destroyer of the light side it was told in prophecy, ah whatever we're Jedi let's train him anyway. It's probably why Qui-Gon had to die, his penance for not following the obvious path of not training the abused kid with super powers.
Yeah I think you're pretty close to hitting it right on the head. The story to me was always an attempt to describe what evil is and how it works. The way you describe the influence of will and arrogance was a major part of that. Agree about the prophecy part as well.
What I really like about the movies is how meaningful small moments actually were. Everything was planned thematically to tell this moralistic story of the nature of good and evil.
How much the Jedi were culpable? Probably a significant amount, there were moments a simple adherence to a basic moral compass would have helped but they just plowed ahead.
Hey this kid can be the destroyer of the light side it was told in prophecy, ah whatever we're Jedi let's train him anyway. It's probably why Qui-Gon had to die, his penance for not following the obvious path of not training the abused kid with super powers.
I think that the story is really about how easy people are willing to surrender to evil and authority.
You look at the Clone Troopers, they were hero's worked with the Jedi side by side (especially if you watch the excellent clone wars series) and then without malice or hatred but because they were trained that way they turned on the Jedi because of orders.
The Death Star had millions of people on it, they couldn't all be evil nor could every officer in the Imperial Navy. But they were willing to give up their freedom and do something morally wrong for the order and security that Palpatine offered.
In the book Dark Lord, Palpatine mused that the Jedi and even Vader didn't understand the true power of the Dark Side of the Force.
They got stuck on the Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to suffering.
But the truth according to Palpatine was simple. You had to gain control over those emotions because by doing so you would be able to overcome morality in order to serve a higher goal.
Palpatine also believed that the drive for power allowed him to re-order the galaxy and take away authority from those that were unworthy of it. He believed that only the Sith should rule because everyone else couldn't rule.
The Jedi had to die for two main reasons.
1) The Sith really believed that the Jedi were fairly evil and corrupt due to the Jedi committing acts of Genocide at the end of the Hyperspace war (again sadly not part of Canon anymore). When the Sith were defeated by the republic, the Jedi ordered the entire Sith civilization to be exterminated.
Hence why Palpatine told Anakin that "Evil was a point of view"
2) The other reason was that the Jedi would never understand or be able to live in a galaxy run by the Sith and that their philosophy of serving the republic and the lesser beings in the galaxy was foolish and a corruption. The Jedi should have used their power to rule.
In the end Palpatine nailed it on the head. The Jedi failed because they had accumulated great power and wealth and were afraid to lose it and because of that attachment to their wealth and power they fell, not to the darkside, but from the lightside.
To Palpatine Darth Bane was right and its one of my favorite fictional sayings, and I used it in that game we played on the board a while ago.
The Weak serve the strong, this is the nature of things.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Last edited by CaptainCrunch; 11-25-2016 at 05:12 PM.
Yeah that was not how I interpreted it. If the point of the series was that people give in to authority then the climax would have been different.
The most crucial part of the whole series when Luke is confronted by Sidious he is given the choice of submitting or being destroyed. If the point was people give in to authority the climax wouldn't contradict your point.
It really seemed to be about how evil works. All the things you mentioned tie in to that. How the Jedi clinged to wealth and power, how evil can hide in plain sight with a smile and a handshake, how prophecy was interpreted erroneously and used as justification for violence and how masses of people were influenced with fear.
The story arc mirrors a lot of fictional allegories. e.g. Lord of the Rings. Powerless nobody on the fringes of existence stands up to ultimate power, the overmatched hero overcomes evil because his will is pure and he is making selfless decisions.
In the end Vader saw that Sidious was only acting on his own accord while Luke was willing to die for his friends and family, the choice at that point for Vader was easy.
In case anyone else is interested the K-2SO Black Series figure is 25% off at Indigo, there's 1 left at the one by Sunridge. Might be hard to find for a Christmas gift after the movie comes out. Or at least I remember the black series being hard to find last time I wanted one.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
Something about an X-Wing flying around just gets me excited.
__________________ "In brightest day, in blackest night / No evil shall escape my sight / Let those who worship evil's might / Beware my power, Green Lantern's light!"
Avoiding trailers is the way to go for movies. I'll never watch a movie trailer and rarely listen to reviews, it's so much more enjoyable with zero expectations or foreknowledge. You can usually suss out a good portion of the plot from trailers nowadays.
