[Rumour] Flames still trying to re-sign Russell

[Badgers Nose]

Flames rebuild has gone pretty good so far. Not sure how you could expect more in year three. Last year breaks the trend chart, but next year and the year after is when the real pressure should start.

I'm happy with 'in the playoff hunt' as a description of year three.

So yeah, time to start letting some filler go as the kids take on the hardest minutes (which they have been doing for over a year now).

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I guess you must sit there on trade deadline day every year and think, wow every single veteran defencemen that moved was overpaid for. At some point maybe you should consider that the value of depth veteran defencemen near the deadline is higher than you think.

See: Coburn, Brayden

[Strange Brew]

I never thought of Engelland in the same class as Coburn. I don't think anybody else does either. I will be ecstatic if the Flames can get a 3rd round pick for Engelland. I highly doubt it, and I don't think he will even be traded until next year's deadline, if then.

As for Russell, you must be expecting a king's ransom.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I never thought of Engelland in the same class as Coburn. I don't think anybody else does either. I will be ecstatic if the Flames can get a 3rd round pick for Engelland. I highly doubt it, and I don't think he will even be traded until next year's deadline, if then.

As for Russell, you must be expecting a king's ransom.

Coburn is nothing special at this point. A borderline top 4, maybe more of a bottom pairing guy. The point is, competent defensemen are worth quite a bit because playoff teams are worried about potential injuries that might derail a playoff run because they are forced to give less than competent guys those minutes. Remember how scared Hartley was of playing Wotherspoon and Potter in the playoffs? It's that exact situation teams are afraid of, and will pay a decent amount to avoid.

I think Russell will likely garner a 2nd, or a 2nd+mid pick. He would get more but he's undersized and a possession black hole, but he's still a competent bottom pairing/depth guy. I honestly think he holds more trade value than Hudler at this point, even though they have both been terrible this season. I bet Engelland would fetch a 3rd if the Flames wanted to trade him, but I doubt they do.

[Jason14h]

I guess you must sit there on trade deadline day every year and think, wow every single veteran defencemen that moved was overpaid for

Or it shows how much fans overvalue draft picks compared to GM's.

[IgiTang]

I like Engalland. I hope he sticks around to help mnwtor some of the younger, more physical dmen. Is that a role hr could be useful at? I don't know much about him in terms of mentoring or off ice leadership? Anyone in the know?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

I like Engalland. I hope he sticks around to help mnwtor some of the younger, more physical dmen. Is that a role hr could be useful at?

In Stockton? Definitely. That's why he was signed in the first place. He'd be a great fit down there.

[Toonage]

Engelland isn't going anywhere. The Flames want Russell but won't be able to meet his price. He'll move on. Am I right? Maybe. Do I want to be right? Sure. Did I morph into Dreger while typing this? Quite possibly.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

In Stockton? Definitely. That's why he was signed in the first place. He'd be a great fit down there.

They didn't pay him that much money to send him to Stockton.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

In Stockton? Definitely. That's why he was signed in the first place. He'd be a great fit down there.

Wow.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by burnitdown

By this standard, we're dangerously looking like we're behind the curve as it's more likely we're a lottery team this year as opposed to a playoff team. If it wasn't for our crappy division, we'd be way out of the mix.

Meh - if you ignore the crap start and the super hot December as outliers, I'd say they are a middling team just out of the POs, and not near the bottom of the league. Plus, the future looks good with 3-4 good young forwards, 2 great young D with several more on the way and only the goal as a question mark (and there we have Gillies and MacDonald which is as good as any team's prospects IMO).

Glass half full, folks.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

In Stockton? Definitely. That's why he was signed in the first place. He'd be a great fit down there.

He was signed because at the time there was no Hamilton, Nakladl, Kylington, Anderson, Morrison, Kulak, Culkin or even Kanzig. At best there was Wotherspoon.

[Coach]

These questions are always dependent on the salary that comes along with it.

In a non-cap world, you could just pick and choose (want/don't want). In a cap world the question is worth/not worth it?

Russell as a 5-6 guy who can bump into the top 4 for limited time and being paid 2-3 mil? Yes. Russell at 5 mil (which he might push on the open market)? No.

I like Russell, and I wish him the best getting his well-earned pay day.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I guess you must sit there on trade deadline day every year and think, wow every single veteran defencemen that moved was overpaid for. At some point maybe you should consider that the value of depth veteran defencemen near the deadline is higher than you think.

It isn't every trade deadline. With the cap not projected to go up most teams have been very frugal in paying for depth players. Regardless of position. Term is the real killer. Guys like Engelland, Wideman, and Smid might have some value to a team looking to make a run. But the extra year under contract is going to make moving them very difficult.

Russell on the other hand likely does have value. His is a pending UFA and his contract is reasonable.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He was signed because at the time there was no Hamilton, Nakladl, Kylington, Anderson, Morrison, Kulak, Culkin or even Kanzig. At best there was Wotherspoon.

He was signed in 2014. Kulak, Culkin and Kanzig were all around. Sieloff was looked at as a prospect as well.

[Gaskal]

If Engelland was being paid like 1 million instead of nearly 3, I would be all for keeping him as a long term depth d-man veteran. You don't want a prospect in that #7 spot - you want a placeholder veteran that can sub in occasionally, provide leadership, and do an alright job on a bottom pairing to be pushed out by the youth. But that awful 2.9million anchor...

[Toonage]

Engelland earned his money last spring against the Canucks. OK, maybe not all of it, but he did show what his value truly was to the team during the stretch run and that series. I'm happy to have him on the team.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Or it shows how much fans overvalue draft picks compared to GM's.

Nope. It shows how much depth defensemen are worth near the trade deadline, which is a lot. Draft picks are extremely valuable commodities and GM's know that. You can look at the history of trades in the NHL to see that quite clearly.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by kehatch

It isn't every trade deadline. With the cap not projected to go up most teams have been very frugal in paying for depth players. Regardless of position. Term is the real killer. Guys like Engelland, Wideman, and Smid might have some value to a team looking to make a run. But the extra year under contract is going to make moving them very difficult.

Russell on the other hand likely does have value. His is a pending UFA and his contract is reasonable.

It's EVERY deadline. Do we really have to pore over every NHL trade deadline transaction list because it proves it quite easily. I mean I'll provide the proof if people don't remember these trades.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Complete list of defensemen NHL trade deadline deals including soon to be UFAs plus defensemen with term

2014-15
Franson/Santorelli FOR Jokinen/Leipsic/1st rounder
Sekera FOR McKeown(2nd rounder)/1st rounder
Timonen FOR 2nd/cond 4th
Yandle/Summers/4th FOR Duclair/Moore/cond 1st/2nd
Coburn FOR Gudas/cond 1st/3rd
Michalek/cond 3rd FOR Letunov
Zidlicky FOR cond 2rd or 3rd/cond 5th
Cole FOR Bortuzzo/7th
Leopold FOR Falk/5th
Lovejoy FOR Depres
Wizniewski/3rd FOR Bourque/Karlsson/2nd
Brewer/5th FOR Holzer

2013-14 (This year the trade deadline was messed up cause of Kesler non-trade)
Diaz FOR Weise
Robidas FOR cond 4th
MacDonald FOR Mangene/2nd/3rd
Rundblad/Brisebois FOR 2nd
Klesla/Brown/4th FOR Erat/Mitchell
McNabb/Parker/2nd/2nd FOR Fasching/Deslauriers
Schultz FOR 5th
Meszaros FOR cond 3rd/cond 4th
Diaz FOR 5th

2012-13
Redden FOR cond 7th
Hannan FOR cond 7th
Drewiske FOR 5th
Bergeron FOR Hall/7th
Regehr FOR 2nd/2nd
Bouwmeester FOR Cundari/Berra/1st/cond 4th
Leopold FOR 2nd/5th
Huskins FOR cond 7th
Murray FOR 2nd/2nd
Brennan FOR 5th

2012-12
Allen FOR Samsonov
Wideman FOR Hauswirth/3rd
McCabe FOR Kennedy/3rd
Sulzer FOR cond 7th
Goligoski FOR Neal/Niskanen
Shattenkirk/Stewart/cond 1st or 2nd FOR Johnson/McClement/1st
Brewer FOR Beaukeboom/3rd
White FOR 2nd
Kaberle FOR 1st/cond 2nd/Colborne
Stuart/Wheeler FOR Peverley/Valabik (yikes!)
Mara FOR 5th
Beauchemin FOR Jupul/Gardiner

So Russell isn't as valuable as Sekera, Franson, Regehr, Boumeester, etc.
But he arguably may be as valuable or moreso than guys like Timonen (injured most of the year), Zidlicky, Lovejoy, Andrew MacDonald, Leopold, Doug Murray, Wideman (circa 11-12), Brewer, McCabe, etc. Therefore that puts his value somewhere between a 2nd+ to a 3rd + prospect/pick.

Interesting to note the Wizniewski/3rd FOR Bourque/Karlsson/2nd deal. I think Wideman's value may be most similar to Wizniewksi in this deal as both had prohibitive contracts. I think Wiz's value was higher than Wideman's. But if we do trade Wideman look for it to be a deal where we acquire another bad contract (Rene Bourque in this example).