[PGT] Where is the defense? Flames lose to Avs 6-3

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

last year was an improvement, yes no question.

But the next step is hard... lots of teams that do make the step the Flames did last year, do not take the next step forward. Many get caught in purgatory until they eventually have to rebuild, again.

So, what is the next step Hartley? Does he know? Is it even possible? Tough question to ask, maybe it'll be the question Treliving asks as he's interviewing new candidates. When Darryl was interviewed in 2003, he apparently came in with a whole book full of comments and ideas; Ted Nolan came in with his hands in his pockets, unprepared.

Fair point. I don't know the answer to that question, but I think Hartley has at least earned the opportunity to attempt the process. Don't forget that this is still far from the finished roster of a team that anyone should expect to compete for a Stanley Cup. I'd say the defense is getting close, but there's probably 1-2 spots that will be replaced. The forwards are still pretty far off, with quite a few veteran place holders until prospects can make the jump. And don't even get me started on the goaltending situation.

All in all, Hartley is doing the best he can with a lot of factors that have just gone wrong this year. Maybe that's his fault, but maybe it's not and it's just how things have unfolded. Where Hartley's value lies is in his ability to right the ship and get them playing solid hockey again for the rest of the year. If he can't manage that, then yeah, maybe we move on from him. I have no idea who would be a better choice though.

[polak]

Originally Posted by EVERLAST

WOW POLAK

Coach of the year to FIRED!!!!

REAL MEN OF GENIUS on those budweiser commercials should do a spot on you.

I didn't realize that winning coach of the year allows you to not do your job for the next year and still be immune from firing.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Fair point. I don't know the answer to that question, but I think Hartley has at least earned the opportunity to attempt the process. Don't forget that this is still far from the finished roster of a team that anyone should expect to compete for a Stanley Cup. I'd say the defense is getting close, but there's probably 1-2 spots that will be replaced. The forwards are still pretty far off, with quite a few veteran place holders until prospects can make the jump. And don't even get me started on the goaltending situation.

All in all, Hartley is doing the best he can with a lot of factors that have just gone wrong this year. Maybe that's his fault, but maybe it's not and it's just how things have unfolded. Where Hartley's value lies is in his ability to right the ship and get them playing solid hockey again for the rest of the year. If he can't manage that, then yeah, maybe we move on from him. I have no idea who would be a better choice though.

not much I can argue here, just that it doesn't have to be his fault, to change coaches. Maybe he's just not the right guy for the next step. I'm not privy to what goes on behind closed doors, and there is a lot more then just choosing which crappy goalie to play or benching players cause they are sucking.... I actually don't know what makes a good coach at all other then a few Scotty Bowman stories, all I know is coaches get changed all the time in these situations because its the most obvious solution. If a loyal guy like Murray might let Boudreau go, anyone can go really.

[EVERLAST]

Hartley is not the problem here nor are his assistant coaches.

are we so used to the coaching carosel here that this is our kneejerk response to a little failure rather than success???

we played a full 60 minutes a game last year

This year we fold like a cheap tent when theres a pushback ....this is on the players entirely.

anyone suggesting a coaching change really should watch more hockey.

[habernac]

effort and goaltending. Nothing on the coaches. They can't play the game for them.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by Drak

Hartley has to go? Trade Gio? What?

This team is still in a rebuild. Last year was fantastic and the playoffs were gravy. The problem is, now people's expectations have skyrocketed into the stratosphere. We need to settle down and face the reality that there's still work to do, this team is young, and frantically hitting the panic button at this stage with these sorts of demands is not reasonable.

Last year this team had a reputation for outworking their opponents and never quitting leading to ten comeback wins and the best 3rd period goal differential in the league.

This year after 13 games they are last in goals against, have the worst differential in the league and with the exception of our youngest players, they do not look like they are putting out the same effort. Neither the team nor the coaching staff seems able to adjust.

Firing the coach is pretty standard in this scenario. It's only a matter of time.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Just for fun, those of you who want to find a new coach, please give a list of viable candidates and real reasons as to why they might be a good fit. No joke. I want to see what's out there.

[polak]

Originally Posted by EVERLAST

Hartley is not the problem here nor are his assistant coaches.

are we so used to the coaching carosel here that this is our kneejerk response to a little failure rather than success???

we played a full 60 minutes a game last year

This year we fold like a cheap tent when theres a pushback ....this is on the players entirely.

anyone suggesting a coaching change really should watch more hockey.

How else do you fix it? If the coaches can't get the players to do what they're telling them, then what? Do we attempt to trade 10 players?

If the players have tuned the coach out then we have no choice but to fire the coach.

The only discussion that makes sense right now is how long of a leash do we give Hartley to try and save his job.

I'm in the camp that if we do it now then maybe someone can get these guys to buy in to a new system and maybe rattle of a few wins, like often happens after a coaching change, and maybe regain some confidence and save the season and BUILD on last year.

Instead, some of you seem content on taking leaps back from last year and letting Hartley "figure it out" cause he won the NHL equivalent to an employee of the year award last year.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by EVERLAST

Hartley is not the problem here nor are his assistant coaches.

are we so used to the coaching carosel here that this is our kneejerk response to a little failure rather than success???

we played a full 60 minutes a game last year

This year we fold like a cheap tent when theres a pushback ....this is on the players entirely.

anyone suggesting a coaching change really should watch more hockey.

if by full 60 minutes you mean getting outshot 4390850438043985 to 6 in the first 40 minutes and surviving by kris russel the shooter tutor blocking half of them, then come back and play a strong final 20 then yes

[Wiggum_PI]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Just for fun, those of you who want to find a new coach, please give a list of viable candidates and real reasons as to why they might be a good fit. No joke. I want to see what's out there.

Nobody around here who wants the coach fired, has suggested a single candidate to replace him. I'm also interested who's out there that's an instant upgrade on Hartley.

[polak]

It can be anyone that presents a decent plan and system to Treliving. You're not going to replace every coach with some sort of clear, no brainer upgrade.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Fwiw, Hartley is doing good things with Bennett, and the results are coming.

I think the veteran leadership is overrated on this squad. The captain should be taking a good chunk of the blame (just like Iginla did)

All these great "locker room" leaders need to start doing something on the ice. Stajan, Gio, Hudler. Even Monahan needs to step it up now that he has a letter.

I do wonder how long it will take for the coach killers/country club/Iginla mutiny type comments to surface.

Hartley will likely be canned if this goes on too much longer.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by polak

How else do you fix it?

Define what you are fixing. What is the goal?

The playoff ship already sailed.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Just for fun, those of you who want to find a new coach, please give a list of viable candidates and real reasons as to why they might be a good fit. No joke. I want to see what's out there.

You may have a point there but you can bet that Treliving is doing his homework. Maybe he decides to wait until later because who he wants isn't available. At least Tortorella is out of the equation.

[polak]

Originally Posted by troutman

Define what you are fixing. What is the goal?

The playoff ship already sailed.

I want to be building on the last two seasons, not starting all over.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by polak

It can be anyone that presents a decent plan and system to Treliving.

So you have no actual suggestions for replacements? Just "anyone who has a plan"? Basically anyone who sounds good in an interview? That's how an Eakins gets hired.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by polak

I want to be building on the last two seasons, not starting all over.

That's on the GM, not the coaches.

[stone hands]

Really the only area the flames have regressed in from last year is clearing the front of the net and goal tending. Unfortunately this has resulted in 4 or 5 extra goals against per game

the actual flow of the games has been either on par or better than last year in most respects, even after getting deflated by a 5-2 goal or whatever

[polak]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

So you have no actual suggestions for replacements? Just "anyone who has a plan"? Basically anyone who sounds good in an interview? That's how an Eakins gets hired.

I don't get paid to know the vast swath of professional hockey minds. It's also how Scotty Bowman was hired. Every great was a risk at one point.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by stone hands

Really the only area the flames have regressed in from last year is clearing the front of the net and goal tending. Unfortunately this has resulted in 4 or 5 extra goals against per game

the actual flow of the games has been either on par or better than last year in most respects, even after getting deflated by a 5-2 goal or whatever

This sure shows up on the penalty kill. Passes across to open guys aer being made against them all the time, the net front is crowded and there's free lanes to shoot through. And the goalies haven't stopped long range shots (albeit hard ones).