Flames goaltending is killing our chances at McDavid/Eichel/Hanifin: Discuss

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Elite talent does not always come from from the top 5, top 3 players in the draft. For the most part they do, but they aren't always the best players from the draft.

The only way we drop in the standings is to create a worse roster than Carolina and Buffalo. That is not happening, so to gain elite talent, you need to pretty much put up an AHL roster out there.

If our chances drop at picking in the top 3, oh well. This draft is pretty deep that I think the top 15 prospects are going to be great. So yes, our winning culture is more important to me than elite talent as of now because we are a team that looks like we won't have a top 3 pick for a while.

Take the past 10 drafts and tell me how many times the best player from the draft wasn't in the top 5.pp

[BigRed]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I could draw you a map and you'd probably still get lost.

Or you could draw a map for everyone and you'd probably still be kind of a prick.

[dash_pinched]

Obviously, time will tell, but the Flames may have selected the best player from the 2014 draft selecting 4th overall. It's still early, but the more times I see Draisaitl, I'm more and more pleased that Edmonton took him over Bennett.

[badger89]

Originally Posted by devo22

I don't get why people think Diaz was a bad signing. He's a 7th defenseman who sits in the press box and plays 6th D minutes if there's an injury. I'd rather have a guy like him for that job than Wotherspoon.

I'd rather have Smid for that role and Wootherspoon in the lineup.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Take the past 10 drafts and tell me how many times the best player from the draft wasn't in the top 5.pp

What's the point? The Flames are not going to be in the top 5 this year.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Answered multiple times already: Nobody is suggesting the Flames do anything. And fans have no control over this stuff. It's a question of the likely outcomes of different factors outside our control.

It's like oil prices. The fact there's nothing any of us can do to change the price doesn't mean there's no point in discussing the possible outcomes of high versus low prices.

I think that's a cop out.

The OP asked specifically if winning was bad for the team. Many posters have argued that getting top 3 players was the way to build a contender.

Well, the other side argued that there are costs to getting into that top 3, so how do people suggest it be done without hurting the development of the other prospects?

To then say no one has an answer to that but top picks are good, well... all I can say is: ok, thanks.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by BigRed

Or you could draw a map for everyone and you'd probably still be kind of a prick.

Wow that was really clever. Good job.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Wow that was really clever. Good job.

It actually was pretty good.

[krynski]

Originally Posted by Goriders

It actually was pretty good.

I Concur.

[Hackey]

The yes men bandwagon on here is always full so not surprising.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I think that's a cop out.

The OP asked specifically if winning was bad for the team. Many posters have argued that getting top 3 players was the way to build a contender.

Well, the other side argued that there are costs to getting into that top 3, so how do people suggest it be done without hurting the development of the other prospects?

To then say no one has an answer to that but top picks are good, well... all I can say is: ok, thanks.

Several people have tried to explain this as clearly as possible. There seems to be a willful misunderstanding going on here. I'll try again.

• I'm not talking about anyone doing anything. So take 'do' out of the discussions. This is simply speculation about likely cause and effect.
  
• Drafting 3rd will likely result in a player who makes a greater difference to the long-term success of the team than a player drafted 8th. Notice I'm saying 'likely', not 'guaranteed'. Call this value X.
  
• Finishing 3rd last may do somewhat more damage to a team's culture than finishing 8th last. Call this value Y.
  
• I believe X > Y.

That's all.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I could draw you a map and you'd probably still get lost.

People keep stressing culture. The great winning culture were building versus the horrible losing culture of other teams. Posters like to act like this culture is more important than a high pick. Other posters are stating that this is way overblown and that the superior talent is more valuable than the gained culture. How do we drop in the standings? Don't think I need to explain how to do that. Pretty simple. Am I suggesting we purposely drop? No. But let's not kid ourselves that somehow being a bit more competitive is more valuable than superior talent. Elite talent is way more difficult to find than culture. If that's still foggy for you Im sorry. Let's move on.

So what is this scenario that is so simple that you don't even need to explain it, yet it's not on purpose?

Ok, so you realize that it is a very rare thing to improve from one of the bottom teams to one of the top teams in one season, right? The only two examples I can think of off the top of my head are the Avs and Flyers from a few years ago. So when does it become OK to improve only a bit? Most teams that are competitive today slowly worked their way up the standings over the course of a few years as their teams improved. It's not just some automatic thing. Even the Pens and Hawks took a few years to get to being a top team AFTER they got their elite talent from high picks. So when do we allow the team to show improvement without bitching about losing a top pick? It might only be from 26th to 21stth to 18th, to 16th and so on. Are all those years in between wasted years because they didn't end with top picks or playoffs. Sometimes you're going to get caught in the middle. It's just the way it is. And improving is a good thing.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Several people have tried to explain this as clearly as possible. There seems to be a willful misunderstanding going on here. I'll try again.

• I'm not talking about anyone doing anything. So take 'do' out of the discussions. This is simply speculation about likely cause and effect.
• Drafting 3rd will likely result in a player who makes a greater difference to the long-term success of the team than a player drafted 8th. Notice I'm saying 'likely', not 'guaranteed'. Call this value X.
• Finishing 3rd last may do somewhat more damage to a team's culture than finishing 8th last. Call this value Y.
• I believe X > Y.

That's all.

That's fine and that's a valid opinion. Impossible to determine one way or the other, but whatever.

What I was getting at was in reference to the posters who have taken it a step further and have suggested or implied that the Flames are doing something wrong by not being lower in the standings.

[ForeverFlameFan]

I think people tend to forget that you can find gems outside of the top 5 players. You don't always have to find elite players in the top 5, but it's much harder to find them outside of that range.

[terminator]

Originally Posted by Hackey

The yes men bandwagon on here is always full so not surprising.

Nope, the wagon still had room for me.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Hackey

The yes men bandwagon on here is always full so not surprising.

Talk to people without being so rude and people will probably treat you better in return.

[JetsFlamesFan]

I didn't read anything in this thread, all I have to say from reading the thread title is: "I don't care, let's keep winning, tanking is for loozers"

[Yanda]

I dont mean to be negative, a jerk, or stir up trouble. However I almost find other flames fans overbearing with there tryhard win-now attitude. Now like I said im not trying to be negative, I cheer for the flames just like you but im not satisfied with a 1 year rebuild. I was hoping to get more exciting talent than just Monahan and Bennett during this rebuild. Its fun to see them win but down at heart I really would like the team to tank. If I could armchair GM this I would dismantle it and field a less talented roster for a few years. The teams attitude would probably change, but with the right management in place they can right the ship.. thats why there employed in there positions. You gotta take some chances to have a gamble really pay off. Im not satisfied with managements approach to rebuilding.

Its super annoying when other fans use terms like "Going Full-Oiler" or something about an attitude change. Thats just stupid, if you have the right management in place that wont be an issue. Edmonton is a special case because there Management is so ####ty that they cant change the team attitude back to a winning culture. This does not mean the Flames wouldnt be able to do it.

[fanman]

Originally Posted by Yanda

I dont mean to be negative, a jerk, or stir up trouble. However I almost find other flames fans overbearing with there tryhard win-now attitude. Now like I said im not trying to be negative, I cheer for the flames just like you but im not satisfied with a 1 year rebuild. I was hoping to get more exciting talent than just Monahan and Bennett during this rebuild. Its fun to see them win but down at heart I really would like the team to tank. If I could armchair GM this I would dismantle it and field a less talented roster for a few years. The teams attitude would probably change, but with the right management in place they can right the ship.. thats why there employed in there positions. You gotta take some chances to have a gamble really pay off. Im not satisfied with managements approach to rebuilding.

Its super annoying when other fans use terms like "Going Full-Oiler" or something about an attitude change. Thats just stupid, if you have the right management in place that wont be an issue. Edmonton is a special case because there Management is so ####ty that they cant change the team attitude back to a winning culture. This does not mean the Flames wouldnt be able to do it.

This is basically what has happened. There's no way you can look at the roster last season or this season and think that management has iced a talented lineup.

Also it's technically year 2 of the rebuild, so whether you're satisfied or not with a 1 year rebuild is irrelevant as it's already gone past that mark and the Flames are still a bottom team in the NHL. The rebuilds not really over until they make the playoffs again, which is likely a few years away still.

I guess I just don't clearly understand what you're trying to say. Management is basically doing what you said you would do as GM, but then you go on to say that you don't agree with their direction. It's early in the rebuild, the Flames have gotten off to a good start but they will have a lot of rough patches as other teams ramp it up throughout the season. I wouldn't be surprised if they end of picking top 10 or even top 5 this year. They won't be picking top 3 (unless the hockey gods grace us in the lottery) as the bottom 3 teams are REALLY, REALLY so much worse, and for that I'm grateful.

After watching a more talented veteran laden lineup mail it in for many games, I'm very happy to watch this new team culture. Even if it means getting a 6th overall instead of a 2nd or 3rd.

[PsYcNeT]

Hockey is entertainment. Currently, watching the Flames has been entertaining.

They are doing a good job. Stop nerding out.