TSN says Flames 14th

[calgaryred]

Still stand by my prediction before the season started the Flames are good to finish 12th.

[Wise Gamble]

No surprise. But Canucks wont finish top 4.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by indes

I think a lot of the frustration is coming from the complete lack of meritocracy that management preaches.

It's a real piss off to watch cammy suck wind day in day out and have him continue to get more ice time than backlund hudler cervenka stempniak and Sven. Iginla included I think these guys need to put the hot players on the ice.

Smith plays great in his role and gets benched. I'm sure the rest of the team is excited to have butler back too.

That's what gets me the most anyways. Players aren't held accountable for not showing up.

I think some of these players have earned a bit of a leash here. You want game by game change when Hartley is still trying to get a feel for his players. I get that this is a short season but please have a bit to patience. Cammy hasn't played much hockey this year and people think putting him on the 4th line or press box is going to help well I think it won't.

[pikester]

Seems odd that the Flames ownership/management was willing to make minor tweaks on the roster & roll the dice yet again signaling virtual status quo, but gutted the coaching staff requiring players & coaches to learn new systems & tendencies in a shortened season. Seems like an extremely contradictory strategy?

[Badgers Nose]

I still look at the roster and have a hard time agreeing with TSN's assessment.

But then they play and yeesh.

This team has been rotten for a long time.

[moon]

Originally Posted by indes

I think a lot of the frustration is coming from the complete lack of meritocracy that management preaches.

It's a real piss off to watch cammy suck wind day in day out and have him continue to get more ice time than backlund hudler cervenka stempniak and Sven. Iginla included I think these guys need to put the hot players on the ice.

Smith plays great in his role and gets benched. I'm sure the rest of the team is excited to have butler back too.

That's what gets me the most anyways. Players aren't held accountable for not showing up.

I think the "meritocracy" BS was a great buzzword and along with a ton of other words and phrases just talk with little to no actually meaning but 5 games does seem fairly early to worry about meritocracy and I would hope that they give some of the vets some time to show what they can do rather than can them on a game by game basis.

I think the real frustration may have come from Feaster and co. acting like the previous regimes had done something wrong and they were going to do something different from what the 29 other teams do. When in reality the previous regime was just fine in terms of meritocracy and when you don't have a ton of talent it is hard to "promote" guys up the ranks quickly and give them a ton more ice time.

[nik-]

meritocracy, intellectual honesty, cap jail, fool me once. Pile them up like a cord of wood.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by pikester

Seems odd that the Flames ownership/management was willing to make minor tweaks on the roster & roll the dice yet again signaling virtual status quo, but gutted the coaching staff requiring players & coaches to learn new systems & tendencies in a shortened season. Seems like an extremely contradictory strategy?

Ummm, they hired the coaching staff long before there was a lockout.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by indes

I think a lot of the frustration is coming from the complete lack of meritocracy that management preaches.

It's a real piss off to watch cammy suck wind day in day out and have him continue to get more ice time than backlund hudler cervenka stempniak and Sven. Iginla included I think these guys need to put the hot players on the ice.

Smith plays great in his role and gets benched. I'm sure the rest of the team is excited to have butler back too.

That's what gets me the most anyways. Players aren't held accountable for not showing up.

Hartley is French and his English isn't great - he thinks 'meritocracy' means the same thing as 'seniority'

[Ped]

Originally Posted by nik-

meritocracy, intellectual honesty, cap jail, fool me once. Pile them up like a cord of wood.

Meritocracy is one thing (the decision to bench Smith for Butler was certainly mystifying), but a player like Cammalleri will always get more rope than say a player like Jackman or Jones or Begin.

Fair or not, the simple reason is the Flames need a guy like Cammalleri to produce if they are going to be successful. Benching Cammalleri in exchange for a Begin may look great on the meritocracy page but probably won't win you any more games.

Cammalleri may or may not score on any given night but he's definitely not going to score from the pressbox.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by moon

I think the "meritocracy" BS was a great buzzword and along with a ton of other words and phrases just talk with little to no actually meaning but 5 games does seem fairly early to worry about meritocracy and I would hope that they give some of the vets some time to show what they can do rather than can them on a game by game basis.

I think the real frustration may have come from Feaster and co. acting like the previous regimes had done something wrong and they were going to do something different from what the 29 other teams do. When in reality the previous regime was just fine in terms of meritocracy and when you don't have a ton of talent it is hard to "promote" guys up the ranks quickly and give them a ton more ice time.

Before Davidson hired Hitchcock, he asked the leadership (Backes, Jackman, McDonald) if the team was ready to buy in completely to a tough, winning coach. They said yes, and Davidson went ahead with the hire. That gave Hitchcock the authority in the dressing room to bench anyone, or move anyone to the fourth line if they didn't commit to total team defence. T.J. Oshie shows up late for practice? Enjoy the next game from the press box. Perron doesn't back check? Welcome to the fourth line.

The Flames haven't shown that kind of coaching buy-in for years. Flames veterans regard defensive assignments as optional suggestions. And the elephant in the room is that in the Flames organization, the coach is going to lose any fight with Iginla.

[Tinordi]

I miss Mainflame.

Did Big Bird ban Oscar the Grouch? No they just all put up with him.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by RobDoupe

Before Davidson hired Hitchcock, he asked the leadership (Backes, Jackman, McDonald) if the team was ready to buy in completely to a tough, winning coach. They said yes, and Davidson went ahead with the hire. That gave Hitchcock the authority in the dressing room to bench anyone, or move anyone to the fourth line if they didn't commit to total team defence. T.J. Oshie shows up late for practice? Enjoy the next game from the press box. Perron doesn't back check? Welcome to the fourth line.

The Flames haven't shown that kind of coaching buy-in for years. Flames veterans regard defensive assignments as optional suggestions. And the elephant in the room is that in the Flames organization, the coach is going to lose any fight with Iginla.

I keep hearing that Iginla isn't "buying in", but are people not actually watching the game?

Iginla is playing as well defensively right now as he ever has. He's getting PK time, he's backchecking, he's doing everything people have been complaining about him not doing

But he only has 3 points in 5 games. That's why people are mad.

Iginla has had some great chances. He had at least 3 good ones against Vancouver, a couple against Anaheim, a few against the Oilers... just because your captain isn't lighting the lamp offensively in 5 games doesn't mean he's not buying in.

Sometimes a team just isn't that good and there's nothing you can do about it.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I keep hearing that Iginla isn't "buying in", but are people not actually watching the game?

Iginla is playing as well defensively right now as he ever has. He's getting PK time, he's backchecking, he's doing everything people have been complaining about him not doing

But he only has 3 points in 5 games. That's why people are mad.

Iginla has had some great chances. He had at least 3 good ones against Vancouver, a couple against Anaheim, a few against the Oilers... just because your captain isn't lighting the lamp offensively in 5 games doesn't mean he's not buying in.

Sometimes a team just isn't that good and there's nothing you can do about it.

I fully agree. I have been hard on Iggy for his past slow starts, but he has played way better than years past. Putting him on the PK has helped defensive side. Its the best that i have seen him backchecking in years. The goals will come.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by BEANZ

I don't get people saying this. This team has been on the steady decline since it Stanely Cup run on 2004. They did add a few good complimentary pieces but they have failed to change the core, instead they insist on rehashing the core (Tangs, Cammy).

Until hey decide to truely change we will be stuck cheering for a mediocre team at best. A team that does NOT have the pieces to be anything more than a 9th to 16th place team.

ditto...the line up would be awesome if it were 6 years ago...but guys like Tangs, Iggy, Cammy and Kipper are trending downwards in their careers, and there isn't guys stepping up. That is the core of the team.

Adding a couple of pieces in Wideman, Hudler and Cervenka wasn't going move the needle for this team as much as people were hoping if those core guys start the inevitable slide that comes with being a 30+ year old in the NHL.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I keep hearing that Iginla isn't "buying in", but are people not actually watching the game?

Iginla is playing as well defensively right now as he ever has. He's getting PK time, he's backchecking, he's doing everything people have been complaining about him not doing

I think that statement was directed more at Iginla of past years - especially last season where he made comments after Brent called him out that basically said "I'm paid to score goals so I'm going to score as many as I can and that's how I'm going to play".

Iginla has been better defensively this year, but you don't think Sutter wanted him playing this way too? It's exactly the problem - Iginla should be playing how the coach wants him to play regardless of who's behind him.

And it's only five games in - let's see how committed the captain is to a complete game when he starts getting heat from the fans/media for not producing big numbers and when the nagging injuries start to pile up and every backcheck requires that much more effort.

[craig.caulks]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Hartley is French and his English isn't great - he thinks 'meritocracy' means the same thing as 'seniority'

There is no word for meritocracy in Quebec.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

This meritocracy argument is a funny one. It's not what the Flames are actually doing and it's probably a good thing.

The old Sutter "do something wrong and I'll make you pay" philosophy was something that was killing the mood of the team. Nobody had any fun, nobody wanted to take chances and make a big play that could change the game. The Flames were safe, dependable, dull, uninspiring, and ended up losing enough to miss the playoffs every single year he coached.

In comes Hartley and he is not only trying to coach the players to a system more suited to the personnel, but he is trying to inspire them to be better than they've shown in years past. You don't inspire with fear, you inspire with optimism. Now that means you give a guy a chance or two to make a mistake and not immediately get benched. You show him that you trust him to be a good player and more often than not he'll respond. If you give him multiple chances and he still screws up, THEN you bench him or reduce his role. The rotation that is happening in the lower lines is meant to give a guy a chance to show his stuff again soon after...good or bad.

5 games is not enough time to develop a working relationship with a coach. This will all play out soon enough.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by JayP

I think that statement was directed more at Iginla of past years - especially last season where he made comments after Brent called him out that basically said "I'm paid to score goals so I'm going to score as many as I can and that's how I'm going to play".

Iginla has been better defensively this year, but you don't think Sutter wanted him playing this way too? It's exactly the problem - Iginla should be playing how the coach wants him to play regardless of who's behind him.

And it's only five games in - let's see how committed the captain is to a complete game when he starts getting heat from the fans/media for not producing big numbers and when the nagging injuries start to pile up and every backcheck requires that much more effort.

Mind sourcing those Iginla comments? Don't recall them like you do.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by craig.caulks

There is no word for meritocracy in Quebec.

What does Quebec have to do with Hartley? Maybe get your facts straight before slandering a province?