Notes: Ken King (Iginla, New Building)

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Where was the drafting? Where was the new crop of stars that should've been carrying the load as Iginla got older? Where was the legit #1 centre (all due respect to Daymond Langkow)?

The team spend money on some decent players but also a lot of has beens. But is sounds like Jarome Iginla was essentially the GM of the team, so we should pin that on him too. Darryl Sutter must've been one weak minded guy to let Iggy force him to make all those moves.

No, I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth.

Unlike you, I'm not pointing fingers. I think Iginla did A LOT for this organization. i think Darryl Sutter did A LOT for this organization. I think Ken King did A LOT for this organization. We didn't win a cup, it sucks, but everybody did their best.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Conroy, Bertuzzi, Tanguay...

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Cammalleri?

I believe Don Hay was also picked upon recommendation from Iginla...

As for "where is the No 1 center" ... Iginla was pushing hard for Marc Savard, Darryl offered the same contract that Boston gave to him, but he took Boston. So YES attempts were always made to try and acquire Iginla-hand-picked players. Don't give me that crap that the Flames hung him out to dry.

... I will agree our drafting/player development sucks crap though. See: Blake Comeau centering Baertschi next game.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

No, I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth.

Unlike you, I'm not pointing fingers. I think Iginla did A LOT for this organization. i think Darryl Sutter did A LOT for this organization. I think Ken King did A LOT for this organization. We didn't win a cup, it sucks, but everybody did their best.

I agree with you. It just angers me that Jarome has become the scapegoat for everything that is wrong with the organization.

Drafting and developing talent has been holding this organization back for decades, its probably the single biggest reason the team is where it is now. There's nothing Jarome can do about that.

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I agree with you. It just angers me that Jarome has become the scapegoat for everything that is wrong with the organization.

Drafting and developing talent has been holding this organization back for decades, its probably the single biggest reason the team is where it is now. There's nothing Jarome can do about that.

I certainly am not scapegoating the guy, I am just saying that he is not the great leader that everyone says he is IMO. I have probably said 100 times if I have said it once on this forum that he is a great goalscorer, probably the greatest goalscorer of his generation. I have said that he is the Brett Hull of his generation, both in goal scoring ability and his consistency in bringing it each and every night and his commitment to the non offensive parts of the game. Nobody is sitting there saying that he is not a great player, just that he is not a great captain. Henrik Sedin is a great player but he is not a great captain. Joe Thornton is a great player, not necessarily a great captain. Iggy is in their category as a captain, not a Toews category, that is all I am saying.

[HighLifeMan]

Captaincy is the most overrated aspect in pro sports. It is ridiculous the amount of pressure fans put on these players to single handedly lead a team to glory. The fact is you need a group of players that will step up and take the bull by the horns, and for the most part that has been missing here in Calgary during Iginla's tenure. The man can only do so much for this team (especially at the age of 35), yet he is still out there leading the team in shots on goal and assists, is third on the team in hits, and is actually the best option in the faceoff circle that we currently have.

Yes, he has 1 goal on the season but do you honestly expect him to shoot at a 1.8% clip for the remainder of the season? One good night can change everyone's perspective of the man around this place. It is truly annoying.

You can say he has had a strong supporting cast at times but I don't buy it one bit.

Look at the past few Stanley cup champions, and tell me with a straight face that he has ever had such a luxury.

Anze Kopitar had Dustin Brown, Mike Richards, Jeff Carter and Drew Doughty supporting him.
Zdeno Chara had Patrice Bergeron, David Krejci, Milan Lucic, Brad Marchand, Nathan Horton and Tyler Seguin supporting him.
Jonathan Toews had Marrian Hossa, Patrick Kane, Partick Sharp, Duncan Keith, Brent Seabrook, Dustin Byfuglien and Andrew Ladd supporting him.
Sidney Crosby had Evgeni Malkin (enough said), Jordan Staal and Kris Letang.

The list goes on and on.

Jarome Iginla has never had a legitimate star talent to support him. Not once. Mike Cammalleri, Alex Tanguay, and Dion Phaneuf are the closest thing he has had to a decent supporting cast. They are all good players, but certainly not difference makers.

[Iniggywetrust]

I'd like to see Iginla traded just for the simple fact that he deserves a chance to win a Stanley Cup and he sure as hell won't get it with the Flames. He is worked his life towards one goal, and to deny him that is just unethical. If he wants to stay here and finish his career in abscurity than so be it. Don't make him come out and ask for a trade just to save face for the franchise.

[PeteMoss]

These leadership stuff is such garbage. If the Flames were a talented team and winning, he'd be a great leader. The Flames are untalented and losing.. so he sucks as a leader.

I'm confident you could go jump on any message board when a team is struggling and see them ripping on their captain for not leading. I'm sure the Hawks fans were yipping about Toews last year and now they aren't.

No player is going to dominant every game. Especially a guy who's 35.

A few years after he's gone, whether through trade or retirement, everyone will realize what a great player he's been for this organization and this 'bad leader' nonsense will be forgotten.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Captaincy is the most overrated aspect in pro sports.

Yet how many teams won the Cup with a captain who was considered a poor leader? The captain plays a very important role on the team. If the captain isn't a guy who on many nights leads his team to victory, he is the guy who brings team unity.

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Jarome Iginla has never had a legitimate star talent to support him. Not once. Mike Cammalleri, Alex Tanguay, and Dion Phaneuf are the closest thing he has had to a decent supporting cast. They are all good players, but certainly not difference makers.

I would argue that Cammalleri, Kipper, and Phaneuf were difference makers. Had Cammalleri stayed with the Flames and remained productive there was a chance he could have been a strong 2nd voice in the locker room.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by FAN

Yet how many teams won the Cup with a captain who was considered a poor leader? The captain plays a very important role on the team. If the captain isn't a guy who on many nights leads his team to victory, he is the guy who brings team unity.

That's the point though, people just assume that you are a good leader if your team wins the cup. Before they won the cup, did anyone actually think that Chara or Brown were good leaders? Both teams had had histories of significantly underachieving and I certainly don't recall hearing anyone extolling the virtues of their great leadership. This whole topic is overblown in my opinion. When your team is winning, people say that it is because the captain is a great leader, when that exact same team struggles, people suddenly question that captain's leadership ability. Does a person's "leadership skills" change from season to season?

[Fischy13]

We will see just how important winning is to Jarome. If he isn't traded when we area clearly out of the payoffs at the deadline, and then signs here for another term, winning is clearly not his objective. And if this turn out to be the case, the Flames should not bring him back. You do not want a player who doesn't care if he wins or not to teach your younger players coming up.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

These leadership stuff is such garbage. If the Flames were a talented team and winning, he'd be a great leader. The Flames are untalented and losing.. so he sucks as a leader.

I'm confident you could go jump on any message board when a team is struggling and see them ripping on their captain for not leading. I'm sure the Hawks fans were yipping about Toews last year and now they aren't.

No player is going to dominant every game. Especially a guy who's 35.

A few years after he's gone, whether through trade or retirement, everyone will realize what a great player he's been for this organization and this 'bad leader' nonsense will be forgotten.

There have been less talented teams in the last six years who have won more than the Flames. Teams like the Predators and Coyotes win because every single player on the team buys into the coach's system and plays as a unit. Every season. Every game. Every shift. The Flames have not had that buy-in from Iginla and other top players.

It's nothing to do with individual achievement. I wanted Iginla gone three years ago. And even if he had 10 goals so far this season I would still want him gone.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Ark2

That's the point though, people just assume that you are a good leader if your team wins the cup. Before they won the cup, did anyone actually think that Chara or Brown were good leaders? Both teams had had histories of significantly underachieving and I certainly don't recall hearing anyone extolling the virtues of their great leadership.

Didn't Chara and Brown put in playoff performances worthy of being called a good leader? I don't think there were too many who questioned Chara's leadership of the Bruins before their Cup except maybe his first year there. He was the team's franchise player and played like it most nights. Brown's leadership and captaincy was questioned but he put in a performance worthy of the team's captaincy. But nobody is calling Brown one of the best leaders in NHL history. The same goes for Iginla. Nobody is calling Iginla a terrible captain. There was one time he was considered one of the very best and rightly so. But he doesn't play the same game he did when he led the Flames to the Cup Finals and there's supposedly been locker room problems in his locker room. Iginla's leadership is now questioned and I think it's fair game.

Originally Posted by Ark2

This whole topic is overblown in my opinion. When your team is winning, people say that it is because the captain is a great leader, when that exact same team struggles, people suddenly question that captain's leadership ability. Does a person's "leadership skills" change from season to season?

Quality of leadership, much like performance, can change from season to season. A lot of it depends on leadership style. Take Mark Messier, you think he was a great leader from the time he played for the Canucks until his retirement?

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Fischy13

We will see just how important winning is to Jarome. If he isn't traded when we area clearly out of the payoffs at the deadline, and then signs here for another term, winning is clearly not his objective. And if this turn out to be the case, the Flames should not bring him back. You do not want a player who doesn't care if he wins or not to teach your younger players coming up.

It doesn't work like that. There are other considerations such as family. I'm not going to question Iginla's "will to win" if he decides he rather not win at all than to win the Cup in a jersey other than a Flames jersey.

[Fischy13]

Originally Posted by FAN

It doesn't work like that. There are other considerations such as family. I'm not going to question Iginla's "will to win" if he decides he rather not win at all than to win the Cup in a jersey other than a Flames jersey.

Yeah, so if this is the case, your okay with Iggy being the captain leading our youth with that mindset of winning isn't first and foremost. A professional athlete requires that mindset. I'm sure there have been plenty of outstanding athletes that never made it because winning wasn't first and foremost for them. If he's not in it to win and family is first, move over, retire than. Don't instill it in the rest of the up and comers.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Fischy13

We will see just how important winning is to Jarome. If he isn't traded when we area clearly out of the payoffs at the deadline, and then signs here for another term, winning is clearly not his objective. And if this turn out to be the case, the Flames should not bring him back. You do not want a player who doesn't care if he wins or not to teach your younger players coming up.

Really don't think posters have to worry about if "winning is not his objective". It's not hard to believe that Iggy has already spoken to his wife about his future in Calgary. If staying in Calgary for family reasons over winning the cup was the way the Iginla familly thought, Iggy would have already re-signed. He is not going to drop a bomb shell on his family near the trade deadline or after the season.

He has not re-signed so far because he is not sure Calgary has a chance of winning. His family more than likely knows about his decision and supports him.

If Iggy for some reason does re-sign, it's because he truley believes this team has a shot at winning. I do think that Iggy believes that if any team makes the playoffs they have a shot. He has said as much in interviews.

[Fischy13]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Really don't think posters have to worry about if "winning is not his objective". It's not hard to believe that Iggy has already spoken to his wife about his future in Calgary. If staying in Calgary for family reasons over winning the cup was the way the Iginla familly thought, Iggy would have already re-signed. He is not going to drop a bomb shell on his family near the trade deadline or after the season.

He has not re-signed so far because he is not sure Calgary has a chance of winning. His family more than likely knows about his decision and supports him.

If Iggy for some reason does re-sign, it's because he truley believes this team has a shot at winning. I do think that Iggy believes that if any team makes the playoffs they have a shot. He has said as much in interviews.

I agree and hope that is the case. I am only suggesting what I am, if my scenario plays out.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

Fact is that nobody is going to emerge as a leader to challenge the guy who has been the leader for 14 years. That just does not happen.

Makes a person wonder if Phaneuf tried to be that guy, and ended up being shipped out as a result of his "bad attitude".

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Captaincy is the most overrated aspect in pro sports.

Nope. It's one of the most critical aspects of a winning team. There is simply no way players are going to put in sweat, blood and tears if they see the Captain taking nights off. And yes, Iginla has taken MANY nights off, not to mention the amount of floating and cherry picking he did under the Brent Sutter era. More games than I care to remember, Iggy was the laziest, worst player on the ice.

[ricosuave]

^ Oh, I'm sure that was the case.

In various threads after he was traded, it came out that he was being too vocal in the dressing room.

[zamler]

It's just getting really hard to believe that with the amount of changes we've seen over the years and still the same dismal result, the one constant is not part of the problem.

People need to stop with the emotional attachment to Iginla and think logically.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Fischy13

Yeah, so if this is the case, your okay with Iggy being the captain leading our youth with that mindset of winning isn't first and foremost. A professional athlete requires that mindset. I'm sure there have been plenty of outstanding athletes that never made it because winning wasn't first and foremost for them. If he's not in it to win and family is first, move over, retire than. Don't instill it in the rest of the up and comers.

I think you're very naive if you think that a strong majority of NHL hockey players today have the mindset that winning is first and foremost.