Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[FireGilbert]

Originally Posted by SmoggyFlamesFan

Politics aside, the flames need a new arena, and I don't care where the money comes from. While I feel CSEC is being greedy, the only nice thing about living in this city is the flames.

[JerryUnderscore]

In fairness to CSEC, you always make your initial offer higher/more audacious than you expect to get that way you have some negotiating room.

With that said, maybe CSEC should focus more on sports management and less on becoming a real estate company.

[Hangman]

Originally Posted by JBR

That’s a pretty big leap. From a wild Flames offer to a guaranteed vote for Nenshi.. like he rode in on a white horse and tore it up personally. Reports are that he didn’t even go to the meetings.

It's not just this alone for goodness sake. This would be the proverbial straw that broke the camels back.
There is more to this mayoral election than just the arena issue.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by JerryUnderscore

In fairness to CSEC, you always make your initial offer higher/more audacious than you expect to get that way you have some negotiating room.

For sure but it was more the tone. It is supposed to be a partnership not a hostile takeover.

[EldrickOnIce]

If the polls are accurate, Nenshi's stance on the arena is irrelevant anyway.

[transplant99]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...poll-1.4344670

Survey respondents were asked: "If the election for Mayor of Calgary were held today, which candidate would you support?"

The results were:

Bill Smith — 48 per cent
Naheed Nenshi — 31 per cent
Undecided — 13 per cent
Andre Chabot — 6 per cent
Someone else — 3 per cent

[JBR]

Originally Posted by Hangman

It's not just this alone for goodness sake. This would be the proverbial straw that broke the camels back.

There is more to this mayoral election than just the arena issue.

There’s much more to it. That’s my point.

[JerryUnderscore]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

For sure but it was more the tone. It is supposed to be a partnership not a hostile takeover.

Absolutely. I'm certainly not in favour of how CSEC has conducted their negotiations at all. I'm all for public money as long as it has a clear and tangible public benefit. CSEC seems to want to be handed a bunch of money for no reason.

[surferguy]

If this is the true ask, does it make a move more tangible for the Flames if they can find a new location that will capitulate to them and give them their ask? They would make way more money with all of the real estate etc.

I am really sick of the way CSEC are handling this arena

[Amethyst]

I thought the Flames argument was that they were "special" not a regular business because they were providing NHL hockey. If they want festival grounds, casino profits, and a bunch of other stuff, then they are a regular business like anyone else and should get no taxpayer money.

If we are going to kick in some money because that's the only way to have NHL hockey and it's part of our culture, fine, I can get behind that argument if the money is reasonable. It looks instead like the CSEC wants an empire and that has nothing to do with the good of the city, so I think we should be out.

[ComixZone]

This is not shocking at all, as it is what Edmonton is doing.

You know what though? At least it’s a company that does want to invest in Calgary, unlike pretty much every other company in the current environment. Yeah, there’s a lot of concessions on the City’s behalf in that ask, and I’m not saying I’m for it or against it - but if anyone thinks this type of deal is exclusive to CSEC, they’re kidding themselves.

For example, in the Amazon bid, if you don’t think Calgary is going to have to bend over and take it from Amazon in order to win the bid, then you’re kidding yourself.

But, I’m sure this will do nothing but further turn people against big business, because for whatever reason, it’s evil for wanting to operate in a City that pretty much no one else wants to at this stage.

I know that will come off as me being “for” CSEC’s deal, when I’m not really - it’s an absurdly large ask in negotiations. I’m just more or less venting about the current state of Calgary knowing full well the significant number of layoffs that are still coming to the energy sector (and have already begun) this fall as companies continue to shed risk and lessen their presence in Calgary.

[Rubicant]

Mr. King, in an interview on Friday, disagreed.

"The process evolved and we ended up in quite a bit different place than where we started," he said, declining to say what changed because negotiations are over. "It is quite academic what, if any, the difference was."

I really don't believe that negotiations are over, but if CSEC truly intends to just play out the string as long as they can in the Saddledome before moving - they should just leave now. It's like an awkward breakup where one person won't move out.

Even if they do stay, I have a far lower opinion of ownership - and therefore the team as it's difficult to separate the two than I did before now.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

This is not shocking at all, as it is what Edmonton is doing.

You know what though? At least it’s a company that does want to invest in Calgary, unlike pretty much every other company in the current environment. Yeah, there’s a lot of concessions on the City’s behalf in that ask, and I’m not saying I’m for it or against it - but if anyone thinks this type of deal is exclusive to CSEC, they’re kidding themselves.

For example, in the Amazon bid, if you don’t think Calgary is going to have to bend over and take it from Amazon in order to win the bid, then you’re kidding yourself.

But, I’m sure this will do nothing but further turn people against big business, because for whatever reason, it’s evil for wanting to operate in a City that pretty much no one else wants to at this stage.

Little easier to stomach giving a deal to Amazon who say they will employ 50,000 people over the Flames who will employ maybe 400-500, many of who are part time only.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

This is not shocking at all, as it is what Edmonton is doing.

You know what though? At least it’s a company that does want to invest in Calgary, unlike pretty much every other company in the current environment. Yeah, there’s a lot of concessions on the City’s behalf in that ask, and I’m not saying I’m for it or against it - but if anyone thinks this type of deal is exclusive to CSEC, they’re kidding themselves.

For example, in the Amazon bid, if you don’t think Calgary is going to have to bend over and take it from Amazon in order to win the bid, then you’re kidding yourself.

But, I’m sure this will do nothing but further turn people against big business, because for whatever reason, it’s evil for wanting to operate in a City that pretty much no one else wants to at this stage.

I know that will come off as me being “for” CSEC’s deal, when I’m not really - it’s an absurdly large ask in negotiations. I’m just more or less venting about the current state of Calgary knowing full well the significant number of layoffs that are still coming to the energy sector (and have already begun) this fall as companies continue to shed risk and lessen their presence in Calgary.

Having Amazon open up a location in Calgary with the job numbers that are being talked about would be a huge economic benefit to Calgary, so it's a little easier to stomach having to put out large amounts of taxpayer dollars for that.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Little easier to stomach giving a deal to Amazon who say they will employ 50,000 people over the Flames who will employ maybe 400-500, many of who are part time only.

I believe this to be a short sighted view of the Flames impact, and also do greatly question the “50,000 jobs” amazon would bring (...I think the number is inflated, but time will tell), but I do get your point.

The general sense in this thread is that CSEC should put forward a deal that no other company in a market like ours should put forward, and that sentiment is what will eventually lead to the end of the organization here, which seems to be the overall hopes in this thread anyways with how CSEC is being portrayed (evil big business).

I also do think the Flames/a plan for a new arena would be a draw for a company like Amazon. Overall, it’s just a really crappy time for the city I grew up in and still call home.

[Senator Clay Davis]

I'm sorry but if the choice were binary and it were only getting Amazon or keeping the Flames, I hope everyone would be nice enough to help Murray and company pack. Also, I'm sure everyone has noticed that all of the very best reporting on this issue doesn't actually involve anyone working for a Calgary news outlet, bunch of sycophants that they are.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I believe this to be a short sighted view of the Flames impact, and also do greatly question the “50,000 jobs” amazon would bring (...I think the number is inflated, but time will tell), but I do get your point.

The general sense in this thread is that CSEC should put forward a deal that no other company in a market like ours should put forward, and that sentiment is what will eventually lead to the end of the organization here, which seems to be the overall hopes in this thread anyways with how CSEC is being portrayed (evil big business).

I also do think the Flames/a plan for a new arena would be a draw for a company like Amazon. Overall, it’s just a really crappy time for the city I grew up in and still call home.

Oh I agree that the portrayal of the Flames, particularly in this thread, is over the top.

People are personalizing it, when this is nothing but business.

I get what Nenshi and the city are trying to do, and i also understand what the CSEC are trying to do. Its a negotiation that hit a roadblock. The Flames aren't interested in the city's plan and that's OK. That's entirely their perogative. The city isn't interested in what the CSEC wants to do, and that's entirely their perogative as well but they have to explain that position to their constituents. The answer for much of this stuff will be answered on Oct. 17.

I think the CSEC was pissed off at the lack of interest from council in the CalgaryNEXT vision they had. They truly believe its something the entire city would be proud of while actually helping develop an area of town that has been the elephant in the room for decades. It would be a legacy project for them as well as the city, but was never ever really considered or taken seriously. Lack of negotiation if you will. Now we are seeing the same thing the other way is all.

When King says that there is no more negotiation he isn't lying. He is saying that the city's current proposal is something they have no interest in being part of. Nothing wrong with that. That doesn't mean that once things have settled down and council has transitioned to its new make-up, that there won't be further discussions about what it is CSEC wants and how it should be constructed.

Again....its just business. Business can be really nasty at times.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I think the CSEC was pissed off at the lack of interest from council in the CalgaryNEXT vision they had. They truly believe its something the entire city would be proud of while actually helping develop an area of town that has been the elephant in the room for decades. It would be a legacy project for them as well as the city, but was never ever really considered or taken seriously. Lack of negotiation if you will. Now we are seeing the same thing the other way is all.

If they really wanted it to be a legacy project they should have come up with something that inspired a bit of awe. Not the crappy renderings they came up with.

Why should the city take a proposal seriously if the Flames didn't?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I think the CSEC was pissed off at the lack of interest from council in the CalgaryNEXT vision they had. They truly believe its something the entire city would be proud of while actually helping develop an area of town that has been the elephant in the room for decades. It would be a legacy project for them as well as the city, but was never ever really considered or taken seriously. Lack of negotiation if you will. Now we are seeing the same thing the other way is all.

Hmmmm, now I wonder why that was? It couldn't be that, well, in the time it took me to write this post, I could have come up with a better presentation than the Flames did, could it? When 75% of this board, the group that should have been firmly behind such a project, wanted nothing to do with CalgaryNEXT, why is it shocking council wanted nothing to do with it either? It was an extremely flawed idea to begin with, and they compounded it with a laughably bad presentation. The reason these negotiations have gone so poorly isn't because "it's business", it's because the CSEC has done an absolute #### job so far. They basically expected the handout without putting much work into it, like we would simply be grateful to contribute.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

If they really wanted it to be a legacy project they should have come up with something that inspired a bit of awe. Not the crappy renderings they came up with.

Why should the city take a proposal seriously if the Flames didn't?

So nevermind the actual idea...it wasnt on glossy enough paper for you?

That's a good way to judge a project.

You don't think the CSEC was taking that seriously?

Well then, nothing left to say.