Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[TheSquatch]

So I shouldn't have bet that he scores over 164 goals this season?


DAMMIT!

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Yep an followed that with 6 goals in a playoff run to the finals. He played big and mean and was #4 in forwards time on ice.

He had a better playoff series with Vegas than any Flame since 2004.

That is what Treliving saw when signed him to the crazy bad contract.

That he wasn't in a position to step up when the Flames desperately needed a playoff performer was a strategic error by the Flames organization.

He was brought in to be a playoff performer and nice Guy try hard coach's buddy Derek Ryan got the thrill of playing in his first 5 playoff games ever.

The Flames top line was a freaking playoff disaster. Having Neal involved enough to step in with the top line should have been a coaching goal.

Maybe Lucic will be able to step up like Maroon and be a positive asset in the playoffs.

James Neal was 18th on the team in that playoff run for xGF%. He was a bad five on five player.

Same as the regular season Neal.

I think Treliving fell into the same hype you did though!

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

And he did it for years and years without McDavid. The Chiasson argument is just a bad look, honestly.

His shooting percentage will obviously come down to earth. But honestly, people are just going to have to accept the fact that Neal is likely to do for Edmonton what we expected him to do here.

I don't entirely agree with this. Sure, some people may be over-stating the argument, and you can't simply disregard Neal on those grounds, but there is definitely such a thing as opportunity, and one player getting that opportunity means another doesn't.

You can't simply say 'if Neal scores 30, they are 30 goals better than last year'. A significant factor in him potentially scoring 30 (or 20, or whatever) is getting opportunities to play with top players and on the PP. Last year, Chiasson got those opportunities, as did Kassian, and both of them had career years.

This year, Neal is going to get those opportunities at the expense of Chiasson (and Kassian to an extent), meaning his goals (some of them at least) will come at the expense of Chiasson and Kassian.

That is neither rocket science, nor just wishful thinking on the part of Flames fans.

I just posted some depth scoring numbers in another thread, and it shows just how inept the Oilers actually are. And that ineptitude also means there is a huge opportunity for anyone with any kind of ability to chip in some offense. Neal will get that opportunity, and as a result, put up some points. But that does not negate the huge holes in his game.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

And he did it for years and years without McDavid. The Chiasson argument is just a bad look, honestly.

His shooting percentage will obviously come down to earth. But honestly, people are just going to have to accept the fact that Neal is likely to do for Edmonton what we expected him to do here.

That's why the entire signing and trading of Neal has turned into such a debacle for the organization. Regardless of original intentions Treliving signing Neal was essentially a get out of jail card for the Oilers as they got rid of a player they were desperate to unload in Lucic for the player the Flames thought they were getting when they signed Neal. It's not exactly Gilmour for Leeman bad but it's one of the worst sequences of events in the history of the organization.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

That's why the entire signing and trading of Neal has turned into such a debacle for the organization. Regardless of original intentions Treliving signing Neal was essentially a get out of jail card for the Oilers as they got rid of a player they were desperate to unload in Lucic for the player the Flames thought they were getting when they signed Neal. It's not exactly Gilmour for Leeman bad but it's one of the worst sequences of events in the history of the organization.

Won't debate the effect on Calgary, the Neal contract leads to the Lucic contract and it's an albatross.

But I certainly don't think Neal in Edmonton results in a get of jail free situation. It's like the gates opened up on the prison, someone hit the guy with a bag full of oranges and he woke up in Guantanamo Bay.

Four years of Neal isn't freedom, just a different type of incarceration.

[TheScorpion]

it's one of the worst sequences of events in the history of the organization.

Man, I find this really hard to believe. I can think of many worse sequences right off the top of my head.

- Trading up to draft Kidd instead of Brodeur
- Trading Brett Hull
- Trading Savard for Zainullin and then firing Gilbert anyway
- Waiving Byron to keep Bollig
- Trading a first and second for Cammalleri and then letting him walk (twice)
- Drafting Rico Fata and Daniel Tkaczuk in consecutive drafts
- Ryan O'Reilly
- Martin St. Louis
- Gilmour for Leeman, obviously

By comparison, this feels so inconsequential. Both guys involved were depth pieces. There was no acquisition cost to get Neal in the first place. They're both old players and their future value is likely negligible.

[Enoch Root]

EE, I am curious what you think the Oilers are going to get out of Neal for the next 4 years.

Because for me, he is every bit the albatross contract that Lucic is. Just a diifferent flavour. And as has been mentioned, there is all kinds of room on the empty Oiler roster for Neal to get opportunities. However, that does not make him a better player, nor does it move the needle on the Oilers being a better team.

If the Oil ever acquire a couple of decent wingers, that pushes Neal back down the lineup to where he should be, and then Oiler fans will quickly come to understand what Flames fans already knoiw.

[iloveicedhockey]

The optics are certainly not great but if Neal was doing nothing for us, and Lucic is doing nothing for us then we're up because we've saved salary to get tkachuk signed.

The oilers shouldn't really be comparing Neal to Lucic but to chiasson, who was in the same spot last year (I vaguely remember 6 goals in 8 games or something).

And as we always say, (blank) won't save the oilers, nothing can.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

EE, I am curious what you think the Oilers are going to get out of Neal for the next 4 years.

Because for me, he is every bit the albatross contract that Lucic is. Just a diifferent flavour. And as has been mentioned, there is all kinds of room on the empty Oiler roster for Neal to get opportunities. However, that does not make him a better player, nor does it move the needle on the Oilers being a better team.

If the Oil ever acquire a couple of decent wingers, that pushes Neal back down the lineup to where he should be, and then Oiler fans will quickly come to understand what Flames fans already knoiw.

I believe EE said both, "the signing and trading of Neal". He is not just talking about the trade. "The signing and the trade that followed", was an organizational move that set had us back in more ways that one.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Bingo

James Neal was 18th on the team in that playoff run for xGF%. He was a bad five on five player.

Same as the regular season Neal.

I think Treliving fell into the same hype you did though!

I agree,. The Flames had total broken Neal before the playoffs. He was useless.


You think it was Neal's fault. No blame for Peters? Not his job to get the most out of the talent?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I agree,. The Flames had total broken Neal before the playoffs. He was useless.


You think it was Neal's fault. No blame for Peters? Not his job to get the most out of the talent?

Maybe Peters deserves some blame for how things fell apart with James Neal, but coming off an historically impressive regular season the coach has earned a good measure of benefit of doubt. Neal earned nothing in his time in Calgary.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I agree,. The Flames had total broken Neal before the playoffs. He was useless.


You think it was Neal's fault. No blame for Peters? Not his job to get the most out of the talent?

Neal showed up out of shape and never even got close to catching up...that has been made clear in multiple reports and places.

What the hell is Bill Peters supposed to do about that?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

I believe EE said both, "the signing and trading of Neal". He is not just talking about the trade. "The signing and the trade that followed", was an organizational move that set had us back in more ways that one.

We all agree that the signing of Neal was a mistake.

EE has been arguing that the trade for Lucic has been one of the worst things the organization has done. Which is ridiculous.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I agree,. The Flames had total broken Neal before the playoffs. He was useless.


You think it was Neal's fault. No blame for Peters? Not his job to get the most out of the talent?

Peters rewards the players the merit for good play, he himself has said as much. At what point did Neal demonstrate that he should be given that opportunity?

The oilers are the poster child for rewarding bad, inconsistent play so it surprises me you want to use the oilers for your example of how they are using Neal, verses Peters, "who just guided the team to the playoffs?" Don't you think you're being a little overly short sighted in order to make a poorly thought out point? If you're still a little confused, try googling the definition of "rewarding bad behavior" This might give you and idea why the oilers have been struggling so long.

The oiler's have been spoiling and rewarding player's before they have developed, or done anything for several years now? How has that worked out? Since you are so obsessed with helping to find fault with Flames, you should join an oiler's forum where you can continue to praise them for what a wonderful job they are doing with Neal! Isn't it wonderful that after so many failed draft picks that Neal doesn't have to earn anything? Now he can be gifted opportunities instead of earning them?

Peters gave a lazy disinterested Neal plenty opportunities all year. In the end, the coach called a spade, a spade; Because the only one to blame for his own play was... Neal. You of all people ricardodw, who has so much interest in the Flames should have known this. Wake up!

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

We all agree that the signing of Neal was a mistake.

EE has been arguing that the trade for Lucic has been one of the worst things the organization has done. Which is ridiculous.

I think he said "sequence of events", he was referring to both the signing and the trade. I know what he said, but to be fair, I believe he was trying to make a more general point.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

I think he said "sequence of events", he was referring to both the signing and the trade. I know what he said, but to be fair, I believe he was trying to make a more general point.

Amazing how clear my post is yet some can't understand it.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

EE, I am curious what you think the Oilers are going to get out of Neal for the next 4 years.

Because for me, he is every bit the albatross contract that Lucic is. Just a diifferent flavour. And as has been mentioned, there is all kinds of room on the empty Oiler roster for Neal to get opportunities. However, that does not make him a better player, nor does it move the needle on the Oilers being a better team.

If the Oil ever acquire a couple of decent wingers, that pushes Neal back down the lineup to where he should be, and then Oiler fans will quickly come to understand what Flames fans already knoiw.

The Oilers can buy Neal out after a couple of years. 2 million over 4 years isn't great but its better than nothing.

What are the Flames going to do with Lucic if he continues to look like a below replacement level player?

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

The Oilers can buy Neal out after a couple of years. 2 million over 4 years isn't great but its better than nothing.

What are the Flames going to do with Lucic if he continues to look like a below replacement level player?

Trade him to the Oilers for picks.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

The Oilers can buy Neal out after a couple of years. 2 million over 4 years isn't great but its better than nothing.

What are the Flames going to do with Lucic if he continues to look like a below replacement level player?

The amount of mental gymnastics going on in this thread is ludicrous. The Oilers got the better player and the contract that was more buyout friendly. They clearly fleeced the Flames on this trade and this is the only place where you will find a contrary opinion. At least the Flames will have a 3rd round pick coming and I suppose if they can nail that pick it's the only hope of salvaging the trade.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

I think he said "sequence of events", he was referring to both the signing and the trade. I know what he said, but to be fair, I believe he was trying to make a more general point.

But as has been pointed out countless times, the signing of Neal has nothing to do with Lucic. It is a sunk cost.

EE continues to criticizethe trade and Lucic and his salary.

These things have to remain separate.

The signing of Neal was a disaster.

The trading of Neal for Lucic, salvaged some usability out of a useless (and possibly poisonous) non-asset.

EE refuses to separate those things.

Also, EE has been catagorizing Neal as some kind of great player that 'winning follows him around'. It's not just over the top, it's wrong.