Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[jjgallow]

Haven't posted here since 2013.

Going to give it a try. Been on the corporate forum for the last 6 years and while my comments will be no less controversial here I see there's a lot more variety of opinion in these parts.

Was an aweful trade, thought so from the minute it was announced. Taking on Neal's cap hit to begin with was aweful and this trade was the only way to make it even worse.

Other than that everything's great

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I think the thing that concerns me about this whole thing is the organization's inability or unwillingness to try to repair the relationship with the player.

Obviously, there were issues on and off the ice, and I'm willing to accept that Neal likely bears the lion's share. However, it also seems crazy that the relationship would implode so quickly from July 2, 2018.

We know that Neal's previous 3 teams were quality, successful organizations. It's fair to speculate whether Poile and GMGM were personally ready to drive him to the airport, but I think it's also fair to ask if there was something different about the Flames organization, or the core leadership group that contributed to this failure.

We know that Frolik had issues last year...a respected veteran with his name on the cup who spent three years in Chicago.

We suspect that Hamilton wasn't fully accepted for being a different kind of guy ...

Troy Brouwer.


Underperforming UFAs is not a problem unique to Calgary, but I think it's fair to consider whether this team hasn't developed a sufficient culture for winning. You can say that they should suck it up and be professionals, but the other team has pro-hockey players too. It's a game of millimeters and milliseconds - positive headspace/confidence and implicit trust in your teammates can be a big part of winning those micro-battles. This team simply hasn't figured out how to do that [in the playoffs], nor have they been able to integrate newcomers with experience on teams that had 'winning cultures'.

I understand the idea behind this line of thinking, but it unravels completely if you consider that Neal has evidently turned it around a bit and is suddenly successful in what has long been identified as the worst "culture" org in all of sports. (ok, maybe outside of the cleveland browns.)

You'd have a much better case if Neal went to a perennial contender or a franchise with a laudable culture and program.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I think the thing that concerns me about this whole thing is the organization's inability or unwillingness to try to repair the relationship with the player.

Obviously, there were issues on and off the ice, and I'm willing to accept that Neal likely bears the lion's share. However, it also seems crazy that the relationship would implode so quickly from July 2, 2018.

We know that Neal's previous 3 teams were quality, successful organizations. It's fair to speculate whether Poile and GMGM were personally ready to drive him to the airport, but I think it's also fair to ask if there was something different about the Flames organization, or the core leadership group that contributed to this failure.

We know that Frolik had issues last year...a respected veteran with his name on the cup who spent three years in Chicago.

We suspect that Hamilton wasn't fully accepted for being a different kind of guy ...

Troy Brouwer.


Underperforming UFAs is not a problem unique to Calgary, but I think it's fair to consider whether this team hasn't developed a sufficient culture for winning. You can say that they should suck it up and be professionals, but the other team has pro-hockey players too. It's a game of millimeters and milliseconds - positive headspace/confidence and implicit trust in your teammates can be a big part of winning those micro-battles. This team simply hasn't figured out how to do that [in the playoffs], nor have they been able to integrate newcomers with experience on teams that had 'winning cultures'.

Frolik has mostly been good for Calgary.
Hamilton played well...and we traded him for an excellent return in a hockey trade.
Troy Brouwer is out of the league.


Frolik and Brouwer declined due to age.

[TheScorpion]

Frolik played two or three (or four) good-to-great seasons here, depending on who you ask.

His signing was a home run by Treliving.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Can we let this thread die? James Neal makes my blood boil, my new all time most hated player! F that guy.

amen brother

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by pepper24

What we're seeing from Neal is that last season was an off year. 2 long playoff runs with Nashville and Vegas didn't allow him to properly train over the summer. With Flames early exit he had a full summer to rest and train.

Flames took gamble that he was in decline rather than having an offseason. With getting that wrong the Flames miss out on a legit 20+ goal scorer along with now getting an awful, slow Lucic as a replacement. Huge miss and terrible trade.

Not really, he's getting goals standing at the net on powerplays while teams are honest to McDavid, Draisaitl, RNH, and Klefbom. Nothing more. He's not playing better outside of being opportunistic.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by DFO

He did at times. They had him all over the lineup through the 3 years there.

Some of you are just so fragile when it comes to this trade

I know. I've gone through 10 cases of scotch and 50 boxes of Kleenex already.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Not really, he's getting goals standing at the net on powerplays while teams are honest to McDavid, Draisaitl, RNH, and Klefbom. Nothing more. He's not playing better outside of being opportunistic.

This seems more an indictment of the Flames top players for their inability to provide him the same opportunity than anything else.

Or maybe it’s a coaching thing. I do have to say I’m a bit concerned at the number of players Peters reportedly does not get along with. That’s all fine and dandy if the team is winning, but when you’re not getting it done in the playoffs you have to wonder if a culture shakeup might be in order before things start going down the dark path of Brent Sutter and Mike Keenan.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Small sample sizes.

I will volunteer that Neal scored 6 goals in his first 4 games in Vegas. No assists there, either. Then he scored 19 the rest of the year.

He appears to have had a couple of decent shots but also has put in gimmes where someone else does all of the work. I haven’t seen all the goals but know that one for sure was a stinker on the goalie

He still is not a good player.

When he is not scoring he is useless. He may just dry up and get parked in the bottom 6 by the end of November

And I project Zach Kassian drops off from his 60 goal pace too

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

I know. I've gone through 10 cases of scotch and 50 boxes of Kleenex already.

That's the perfect weekend.

[SeanCharles]

It doesnt bother me that we traded away a 32 year old left shot winger who has been historically known to be slower and poor defensively.

Even if he has 7 goals in 4 games for Edmonton after putting up 7 here over an entire season.

F#@% him, he will fizzle out eventually, whether it be this season or next. 4 more years of him was too much.

Hopefully BT has learned from his UFA missteps.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I think the thing that concerns me about this whole thing is the organization's inability or unwillingness to try to repair the relationship with the player.

This is very likely on the player, not the team. Neal has always been known to have an ego. With the way Frolik performed the second half of last year and with Stone returning after being bought out, it is pretty obvious that Treliving and the Flames know how to repair relationships when needed.

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Obviously, there were issues on and off the ice, and I'm willing to accept that Neal likely bears the lion's share. However, it also seems crazy that the relationship would implode so quickly from July 2, 2018.

Again, look at Neal. He arrived, ran his mouth about how all that mattered was winning. Then, when his role wasn't what he expected, he seemed to quit. He never put forth an effort defensively, he was disengaged physically.

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

We know that Neal's previous 3 teams were quality, successful organizations. It's fair to speculate whether Poile and GMGM were personally ready to drive him to the airport, but I think it's also fair to ask if there was something different about the Flames organization, or the core leadership group that contributed to this failure.

Yeah there was a difference, we never played him in the role he wanted. He was outplayed by Lindholm, Bennett & Frolik, which pushed him out of the top 6 for the first time in his career.

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

We know that Frolik had issues last year...a respected veteran with his name on the cup who spent three years in Chicago.

We suspect that Hamilton wasn't fully accepted for being a different kind of guy ...

Troy Brouwer.

We know that Frolik's agent had issues, an agent that is extremely outspoken when it comes to his clients. We also know that Frolik was almost traded, but we also know that Frolik came into camp as one of the best conditioned players and has always brought this team a consistent effort even when he was being used in a diminished role.

Hamilton is a recluse and someone that seems to have a quirky personality, people like that are always going to have more difficulty fitting in, I say this as someone that fits that description myself. It's fine and dandy when things are going well, but when it isn't it wears thin on people.

Brouwer was given significant chance here, he was just simply not a fit on the ice and he seemed to lose the team when he more or less defended the Wild when Gaudreau was injured by being slashed.

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Underperforming UFAs is not a problem unique to Calgary, but I think it's fair to consider whether this team hasn't developed a sufficient culture for winning. You can say that they should suck it up and be professionals, but the other team has pro-hockey players too. It's a game of millimeters and milliseconds - positive headspace/confidence and implicit trust in your teammates can be a big part of winning those micro-battles. This team simply hasn't figured out how to do that [in the playoffs], nor have they been able to integrate newcomers with experience on teams that had 'winning cultures'.

Again, I put this on Neal and his ego. He put his ego ahead of the needs of the team, it is really that simple.

You claim that newcomers can't integrate, but why is it only some UFAs that are the issue? Lindholm, Hanifin, Frolik, Hamonic, Andersson, Kylington, Valimaki, Mangiapane, Ryan, Valimaki and Rittich all fit in just fine while being new to the team. Even by all accounts Lucic, Talbot and Rieder are having no issues fitting in either.

So, why single out the minorities and make it seem like a common problem.

[SofaProfessor]

I don't think there's much point in comparing Neal's performance in Edmonton to his performance in Calgary. He's being gifted prime minutes with one of the top players in the world. The only way the Flames could potentially replicate that would be to cement him onto the top line so he can feed on the production of Gaudreau and Monahan. And then you have to tell Lindholm he's demoted even though he makes his linemates better instead of requiring them to carry him. Plus, you risk reducing overall production on that line just to try and boost Neal's numbers.

The guy clearly didn't deserve a top line spot in Calgary and then put in about 10% effort during games. Do you give in and give him what he wants, give up and accept this is the new reality, or trade him to a team where he will be a clear top line player and get back someone who is far less skilled but willing to accept the role they're given? Not an enviable position for Treliving to be in but he did it to himself with another bad FA signing.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It has to be at least a little concerning for Oilers fans that their third-best forward is getting buried in possession with a CF% of 43.3, and has so far 0 ES points through four games.

He has 2 ES points, not zero.


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[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

He has 2 ES points, not zero.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Mmm... pretty sure James Neal is NOT the Oilers 3rd best forward.

Think that title belongs to RNH, who just so happens to have that 43.3% CF% and 0 ES points he's talking about

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Small sample sizes.

I will volunteer that Neal scored 6 goals in his first 4 games in Vegas. No assists there, either. Then he scored 19 the rest of the year.

He appears to have had a couple of decent shots but also has put in gimmes where someone else does all of the work. I haven’t seen all the goals but know that one for sure was a stinker on the goalie

He still is not a good player.

When he is not scoring he is useless. He may just dry up and get parked in the bottom 6 by the end of November

And I project Zach Kassian drops off from his 60 goal pace too

In Vegas, he also scored 3 goals in the last 3 months of the season. It was a distinct drop off.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

In Vegas, he also scored 3 goals in the last 3 months of the season. It was a distinct drop off.

Yep an followed that with 6 goals in a playoff run to the finals. He played big and mean and was #4 in forwards time on ice.

He had a better playoff series with Vegas than any Flame since 2004.

That is what Treliving saw when signed him to the crazy bad contract.

That he wasn't in a position to step up when the Flames desperately needed a playoff performer was a strategic error by the Flames organization.

He was brought in to be a playoff performer and nice Guy try hard coach's buddy Derek Ryan got the thrill of playing in his first 5 playoff games ever.

The Flames top line was a freaking playoff disaster. Having Neal involved enough to step in with the top line should have been a coaching goal.

Maybe Lucic will be able to step up like Maroon and be a positive asset in the playoffs.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

That he wasn't in a position to step up when the Flames desperately needed a playoff performer was a strategic error by the Flames organization.

That he never stepped up is on Neal. He had plenty of opportunity, four games before that to do something, and he instead coasted back while the overtime goal was scored.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

And he did it for years and years without McDavid. The Chiasson argument is just a bad look, honestly.

His shooting percentage will obviously come down to earth. But honestly, people are just going to have to accept the fact that Neal is likely to do for Edmonton what we expected him to do here.

Having dug into his last few seasons (not just the Calgary one) I agree.

Score some goals (15-25) but not add to the team measurably as his underlying stats suggest he gives up more than he brings. That was the guy coming to Calgary. He fulfilled the latter part but didn't score the 15-25 goals.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

This seems more an indictment of the Flames top players for their inability to provide him the same opportunity than anything else.

Or maybe it’s a coaching thing. I do have to say I’m a bit concerned at the number of players Peters reportedly does not get along with. That’s all fine and dandy if the team is winning, but when you’re not getting it done in the playoffs you have to wonder if a culture shakeup might be in order before things start going down the dark path of Brent Sutter and Mike Keenan.

Or maybe he's just scoring on 47% of his shots to start a season when last year it was 4%.

That pretty much supports the burst.

His individual expected goals for in all situations is 1.83.

You don't need to do a deep dive into Calgary coaching linemates or utilization, nothing in the statistics suggests this is sustainable.