General Ongoing Coyotes saga thread

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

You're probably more right than most will admit. I have a friend with a vacation home in Phoenix who doesn't want them to move because when he goes down once a year he gets a game and an all inclusive experience for forty bucks. To which I say 'then they have to go.'

Funny enough, that's been mentioned many times in this thread as the reason lots of Calgarians want that team to stay in Phoenix; Becuase they "go down there once or twice a year and want that option to be available to them".

[Resolute 14]

So Pylon feels cheapened as a Flames fan because the Coyotes draw about 10,000 fans per game.

I wonder if he feels the Blackhawks should have relocated 10 years ago?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

So Pylon feels cheapened as a Flames fan because the Coyotes draw about 10,000 fans per game.

I wonder if he feels the Blackhawks should have relocated 10 years ago?

Big difference between team being run badly (not just on the ice but off, as was the case with the Hawks) and glaring evidence there just aren't that many hockey fans in the area.

[troutman]

Council to hear Coyotes options


http://www.azcentral.com/community/g...s-options.html

The deal would guarantee the potential Coyotes buyers group lucrative terms for a long-term management deal to operate Jobing.com Arena, Councilman Gary Sherwood said. In exchange, the ownership group would give the city access to millions of dollars in revenue derived from events held at the facility, he told The Arizona Republic.

Renaissance’s principals appear willing to discuss giving Glendale revenue from ticket surcharges from hockey and other events such as concerts, parking fees and naming rights on the arena, Sherwood said.

The Coyotes have not charged for general parking, making the team one of the few in the National Hockey League that didn’t do so last season.

Such revenue could close the gap between the amount the city has budgeted for arena management and the amount the potential owners are seeking, Sherwood said.

The city has budgeted $6 million a year. LeBlanc told The Republic months ago that he was interested in about $15 million a year.

The revenue exchange likely is designed to assist Renaissance in getting financing from lenders by demonstrating guaranteed revenue from the city, Sherwood said.

The NHL’s asking price on the team has been widely reported as $170 million.

Renaissance must prove to council members that revenue the Coyotes generate would offset the steep management price.

[If Coyote related revenues are such a pot of gold, why doesn't RSE keep those, and charge COG less?]

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...448449&page=10

It really begs the question, though. If patrons are willing to pay more to attend a Coyotes game (and other events), why don't the new Coyotes owners / arena managers just raise ticket prices? That way they can raise the revenue themselves, without troubling the COG with having to recoup those revenues. My guess is that it is a condition of the lender. Without the security of the annual payment from the COG, they don't trust these revenue streams. [Whileee]

[valo403]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Well if they were moving to Quebec, then I'd say it matters, because the fans and excitement will be 100X better in Quebec with canadian hockey fans and the revival of an old team, and the renewal of the Quebec/Montreal rivarly. While Phoenix is.........Phoenix.

I've asked this question repeatedly, and have never really gotten much in the way of a response, but what impact exactly does that have on you? The people on your TV will be more excited?

I should add that I understood the appetite for a team in Winnipeg from Flames fans. The restoration of an old rivalry makes sense. I just don't get it when it would be a team moving either to Quebec, where there has never been a rivalry of any type, or Seattle, where there's no guarantees it's all that much better than Phoenix. I'm not sure how those change things for people.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by pylon

It matters to other NHL fans because the Coyotes fan base are a pathetic, embarrassing excuse for fans, and they cheapen the NHL by having a 2/3's empty stadium every night. You and your city do not deserve a team, and it is f'ing pathetic public money is being used to keep them afloat. It makes our great game look pathetic when people tune-in, and there is 2500 people in the building. If I was an uneducated fan, I would flip the channel right past thinking it was some sort of tier 2 farm team or something.

Red Deer could run that team more profitably out of the Centrium with the exact same players and cap hit. The coyotes franchise is currently the biggest embarrassment in professional sports, and have been for the last 4 years. So bad, they have actually brought down the value of every franchise in the NHL.

Why do you and your city deserve a team? Why does any city deserve a team?

People who take personal offense to the location of a sports franchise puzzle me. That's really how your priorities shake out? You care that much about how a bunch of billionaires spend their money that it reflects on you personally?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Big difference between team being run badly (not just on the ice but off, as was the case with the Hawks) and glaring evidence there just aren't that many hockey fans in the area.

Wait, are you telling me that the bolded portion doesn't apply to Phoenix?

[pylon]

Originally Posted by valo403

Why do you and your city deserve a team? Why does any city deserve a team?

People who take personal offense to the location of a sports franchise puzzle me. That's really how your priorities shake out? You care that much about how a bunch of billionaires spend their money that it reflects on you personally?

I care because it affects the health of the league. When the owners of the other 29 teams are subsidizing one team, it affects what we all pay. When people tune in and see an empty arena, it makes the league look bush league, and de-values the game. I would have less of an issue if the team was failing on the dime of a stupid owner, not the league.

And as far as to your comments about why would I or anyone else care or take personal offence? Why do you care so much about this issue and take so much offence to what the move the team camp thinks, that you have dedicated 348 posts to this one thread alone? At say an average of 5 minutes per post. You have dedicated 29 hours of your life, just typing responses in this thread. And that doesn't include reading it. That's kinda pathetic.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by pylon

I care because it affects the health of the league. When the owners of the other 29 teams are subsidizing one team, it affects what we all pay. When people tune in and see an empty arena, it makes the league look bush league, and de-values the game. I would have less of an issue if the team was failing on the dime of a stupid owner, not the league.

And as far as to your comments about why would I or anyone else care or take personal offence? Why do you care so much about this issue and take so much offence to what the move the team camp thinks, that you have dedicated 348 posts to this one thread alone? At say an average of 5 minutes per post. You have dedicated 29 hours of your life, just typing responses in this thread. And that doesn't include reading it. That's kinda pathetic.

You care that much about the finances of a bunch of billionaires? The losses of Phoenix don't affect what you pay, the fact that the Saddledome has been sold out for years effects what you pay. League ownership of the Coyotes has not resulted in increased nacho prices.

As for my participation in this thread, I find the topic interesting. It's also related to my profession, and something that I have drawn upon when looking at other legal and business issues. The only offence I ever take is to people who want to simplify complex issues or otherwise pretend that this whole thing is anything but a very convoluted process where each move is carefully considered. I don't know that every move made has been correct, but I do know it hasn't been made without being thoroughly thought out by highly intelligent people with much more information than any of us. The operation of professional sports leagues is fascinating from a business perspective, so I guess it is kind of pathetic if you're one of those people that finds educating oneself to be a pathetic pursuit.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by valo403

You care that much about the finances of a bunch of billionaires? The losses of Phoenix don't affect what you pay, the fact that the Saddledome has been sold out for years effects what you pay. League ownership of the Coyotes has not resulted in increased nacho prices.

As for my participation in this thread, I find the topic interesting. It's also related to my profession, and something that I have drawn upon when looking at other legal and business issues. The only offence I ever take is to people who want to simplify complex issues or otherwise pretend that this whole thing is anything but a very convoluted process where each move is carefully considered. I don't know that every move made has been correct, but I do know it hasn't been made without being thoroughly thought out by highly intelligent people with much more information than any of us. The operation of professional sports leagues is fascinating from a business perspective, so I guess it is kind of pathetic if you're one of those people that finds educating oneself to be a pathetic pursuit.

And all that being said, it doesn't make your opinion the right one, as much as you think it is. You need to step back, and take a look at what a smug, arrogant, know it all you come across as in this thread. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, but when you basically are calling everyone who doesn't agree with you, stupid, and below your level of intellect, it makes it hard to respect anything you say. Take a page out of the book of the guy who has the most posts in this thread.... he has the ability to debate a point without the superiority complex you have.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by pylon

And all that being said, it doesn't make your opinion the right one, as much as you think it is. You need to step back, and take a look at what a smug, arrogant, know it all you come across as in this thread. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, but when you basically are calling everyone who doesn't agree with you, stupid, and below your level of intellect, it makes it hard to respect anything you say. Take a page out of the book of the guy who has the most posts in this thread.... he has the ability to debate a point without the superiority complex you have.

Fair enough, but I'm not about to give much respect to posts that aren't based in anything but some sort of bizarre Canadian ethnocentrism or otherwise treat the whole situation as a simple matter. Don't expect to have your opinion respected when it's baseless.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by Brannigans Law

I love internet tough guys lol. Bouw maybe you should take a break from this part of the forum until resolution comes. It can't be easy and you're getting kind of edgy and aggressive.

That was honestly the first aggressive response i've given in months.. Outside of that i've posted updates.

Nothing more needs to be defended or said in my opinion. If it works out it works out, but some folks here are huge hypocrites

[pylon]

Originally Posted by valo403

Fair enough, but I'm not about to give much respect to posts that aren't based in anything but some sort of bizarre Canadian ethnocentrism or otherwise treat the whole situation as a simple matter. Don't expect to have your opinion respected when it's baseless.

Personally I don't care if the team ends up in Canada or not. I care that it ends up in a market that will support the team, and not hold a city and its taxpayers hostage. It is 100% wrong that the residents of Glendale who don't care one iota about the NHL are being forced to pay to support it. The league should be ashamed they have held a gun to the head of that city for the last 4 years.

As for the bolded part. Get over yourself.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by pylon

Personally I don't care if the team ends up in Canada or not. I care that it ends up in a market that will support the team, and not hold a city and its taxpayers hostage. It is 100% wrong that the residents of Glendale who don't care one iota about the NHL are being forced to pay to support it. The league should be ashamed they have held a gun to the head of that city for the last 4 years.

As for the bolded part. Get over yourself.

I don't disagree with the bolded portion, but I definitely disagree with the following sentence. The NHL isn't in the business of municipal politics and they didn't force the city of Glendale to get into the business of professional sports. Previous iterations of local government made bonehead decision after bonehead decision, they built that arena and it's on them to deal with it. If they don't think that having an NHL tenant is in their best interests they are one of the very few municipalities in a position to simply walk away from professional sports, most places are bound by lengthy leases. The fact that that hasn't happened demonstrates that there is at least some value in keeping the team there, we're at the stage of finally determining if that value exceeds the costs.

As for your final line, I assume you fully respect the opinions of random people off the street who come in and tell you about cars and the auto sales industry despite clearly having no idea about a single aspect of it, right?

[Resolute 14]

Professional sports leagues have been holding guns to the heads of municipalities for decades. Don't forget that our very own Flames did the same to the city in 1994. The team up north is also a fine example.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Professional sports leagues have been holding guns to the heads of municipalities for decades. Don't forget that our very own Flames did the same to the city in 1994. The team up north is also a fine example.

Yep, and up until recently cities have also been clamouring for the right to build stadiums and do all sorts of other things to attract or retain professional sports teams, often despite it not being in their best interests. It's a bizarre situation.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

That was honestly the first aggressive response i've given in months.. Outside of that i've posted updates.

Nothing more needs to be defended or said in my opinion. If it works out it works out, but some folks here are huge hypocrites

All I wanted to know is why Seattle but not Quebec City? That's why I asked "What difference does it make to you?"

[troutman]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

All I wanted to know is why Seattle but not Quebec City? That's why I asked "What difference does it make to you?"

Probably because a number of Canadians have been very trollish on the message boards and Twitter.

[Jordan!]

I just have always liked Seattle as a city, it's beautiful there (Unlike Winnipeg) - and the league needs a pacific/western presence if the Yotes do move, Seattle would fill the gap. Plus as trout said, sooooooo many Canadian hockey fans have been trollish and just outright brutal the past 4 years.

That's my point of view.

[seattleflamer]

Originally Posted by seattleflamer

Hard to say without the NHL ever being here. One apples to apples stat is Seattle has 2 WHL franchises whose attendance in the aggregate is higher than the league high Calgary Hitman.

T-Birds = 4200
Silvertips=5200
=9400
Hitman =8900

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendan...L1979&sid=2012

There were questions about increased price support in the Seattle market for the NHL product and an assumption that NHL pricing will be similiar to PHO. Using the same comparables, here's a look at next year's season ticket prices for premium seating for the Seattle teams and Calgary which obviously have other major pro sports to compete for your entertainment dollar:

Thunderbirds--$975.00
Silvertips--$895.00
Hitmen--$590.00

My question is why do Seattle hockey fans pay considerably more for the exact product than in Calgary if there is limited interest? Why is the attendance higher than Calgary for teams that are in the Glendale of Seattle?