[Signing] Gaudreau to Columbus (7 x $9.75 million)

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

https://twitter.com/user/status/1548131773439041538

Crazy how much continent-wide attention Johnny's betrayal/befuddling signing has garnered.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Yep, the moment Johnny said he didn't want to negotiate until after the season, Treliving should have told Johnny sorry, that won't work for us and asked him for teams he would be willing to be traded too.



Teams like the Flames just can't afford to take these chances.

I suspect this is how Tre will be handling other similar situations going forward. No more dealing in good faith and trusting the player. Both good and bad.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by activeStick

I suspect this is how Tre will be handling other similar situations going forward. No more dealing in good faith and trusting the player. Both good and bad.

We don’t have to wait. Tkachuk is already on the plate

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Possibly Fox?

You pass on a future Norris winner that you can trade for another asset for a player that likely doesn't play at all?

The next ten players taken after Fox are highlighted by the Rem Pitlick. That's it.

This literally makes zero sense.

You keep trotting out this whole "future Norris Trophy winner" like it was a certainty. You also make it sound like Adam Fox was the principal player in the trade, and not the third asset of value departing from Calgary. Every team in the league passed on him twice and four teams passed on him three times. He was a lottery ticket, one that two teams had to pass along to the only recipient that could cash it in. The Flames had no idea what they were getting and the pick evolved into a player - a player who wanted nothing to do with the team as it would turn out. Maybe they go with the Canadian route and draft Victor Mete as an offensive defenseman prospect instead and still have a player in the mix? Not having Fox would likely not have had a significant impact on the trade of Hamilton for Lindholm and Hanifin. Treliving would have found a different way to make that work. Fox turned into something special, it was just never going to be with the Calgary Flames, and that's the bottom line.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

You keep trotting out this whole "future Norris Trophy winner" like it was a certainty. You also make it sound like Adam Fox was the principal player in the trade, and not the third asset of value departing from Calgary. Every team in the league passed on him twice and four teams passed on him three times. He was a lottery ticket, one that two teams had to pass along to the only recipient that could cash it in. The Flames had no idea what they were getting and the pick evolved into a player - a player who wanted nothing to do with the team as it would turn out. Maybe they go with the Canadian route and draft Victor Mete as an offensive defenseman prospect instead and still have a player in the mix? Not having Fox would likely not have had a significant impact on the trade of Hamilton for Lindholm and Hanifin. Treliving would have found a different way to make that work. Fox turned into something special, it was just never going to be with the Calgary Flames, and that's the bottom line.

Fox was obviously a good pick, your posts are ridiculous these days

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

You keep trotting out this whole "future Norris Trophy winner" like it was a certainty. You also make it sound like Adam Fox was the principal player in the trade, and not the third asset of value departing from Calgary. Every team in the league passed on him twice and four teams passed on him three times. He was a lottery ticket, one that two teams had to pass along to the only recipient that could cash it in. The Flames had no idea what they were getting and the pick evolved into a player - a player who wanted nothing to do with the team as it would turn out. Maybe they go with the Canadian route and draft Victor Mete as an offensive defenseman prospect instead and still have a player in the mix? Not having Fox would likely not have had a significant impact on the trade of Hamilton for Lindholm and Hanifin. Treliving would have found a different way to make that work. Fox turned into something special, it was just never going to be with the Calgary Flames, and that's the bottom line.

Who should they have drafted instead?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

You keep trotting out this whole "future Norris Trophy winner" like it was a certainty. You also make it sound like Adam Fox was the principal player in the trade, and not the third asset of value departing from Calgary. Every team in the league passed on him twice and four teams passed on him three times. He was a lottery ticket, one that two teams had to pass along to the only recipient that could cash it in. The Flames had no idea what they were getting and the pick evolved into a player - a player who wanted nothing to do with the team as it would turn out. Maybe they go with the Canadian route and draft Victor Mete as an offensive defenseman prospect instead and still have a player in the mix? Not having Fox would likely not have had a significant impact on the trade of Hamilton for Lindholm and Hanifin. Treliving would have found a different way to make that work. Fox turned into something special, it was just never going to be with the Calgary Flames, and that's the bottom line.

Of course they didn't know what they were getting.

But they picked the best player available according to their rankings, and not the best player available that they knew would play in Calgary.

If you have a good scouting staff you will land more asset value that way, than limiting your options.

This seems so obvious to me, I honestly can't believe you've answered three times defending your position.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Of course they didn't know what they were getting.

But they picked the best player available according to their rankings, and not the best player available that they knew would play in Calgary.

If you have a good scouting staff you will land more asset value that way, than limiting your options.

This seems so obvious to me, I honestly can't believe you've answered three times defending your position.

I honestly can't believe you're so dense in understanding the plight. Losing Tim Erixon was a learning moment. It should have been an opportunity for the team to re-evaluate how they approach the draft and making sure they continue to stock the system and improve the product on the ice. They should have trained their scouts to have better conversations with the kids they talk to and make sure they have kids with an interest in playing here. Sutter did it but went maybe a bit too far in drafting only certain types of players. This is a team that can't afford to become a feeder to the American franchises. Hey, by all means, continue to pick players that have no interest in playing for the Calgary Flames. It's certain to work to our advantage at some point. It's a bold strategy Cotton.

[Heavy Jack]

You’re ‘plight’ theory isn’t holding much weight here unfortunately my friend. Our friend Tom busted and once it was determined he turned into a couple 2nds and Roman Horak. Had Feaster trusted his scouts we’d have had Kucherov and Gaudreau from that draft and probably laughed our way to a cup or two. Perfectly fine the flames drafted him where they did if he was their BPA. There’s no way they could have known his desire at that time and they turned it into assets, no plight here.

Same can be said for Adam Fox, only we ended up including him as a piece to push Hamilton and Ferland over the top in offer for Hanifin and Lindholm who both subsequently signed sweetheart deals and have been large parts of the core during the ‘Johnny window’.

Johnny Gaudreau himself didn’t hold out, fulfilled his 2 year ELC and subsequent 6 year commitment and unfortunately used undesirable negotiation tactics for fans of the Flames that he had every right as a pending UFA to use in order to get him a somewhat puzzling contract with the Blue Jackets. As it sits, he’s a grand slam pick in the 4th round with his stats that he has right now for the Flames, had he stayed it would have been a no doubt walk off homer for this franchise and it sucks that we can’t see that but in no way would it have been better for the Flames had they not picked any of Erixon, Fox or Gaudreau.

I mean that line of thinking means we might as well just draft lunch bucket albertans and build a rag tag team of bruisers and grinders but hey they’ll be loyal at least when we sign them to their 8 x 1.5’s .

To go along with your 3 examples of ‘plight’ since the learning moment for the franchise from Tom Erixon in 2009, the following drafted players have played significant time and roles with the club, members are welcome to add ones I’ve missed.

Ferland 2010
Granlund 2011
Gaudreau 2011
Jankowski 2012
Monahan 2013
Bennett 2014
Andersson 2015
Mangiapane 2015
Kylington 2015
Tkachuk 2016
Dube 2016

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I honestly can't believe you're so dense in understanding the plight.

Let’s pause for a moment and imagine using this sentence in an in-person conversation about hockey with any other hockey fan.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Remember it has been reported that the Canes wouldn't do the deal without Fox. the Flames wanted to trade a pick instead and keep Fox to trade him for more value. But the Canes wouldn't do that.

Those that act as if Fox was a "toss in" are spinning things to suit their position.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Remember it has been reported that the Canes wouldn't do the deal without Fox. the Flames wanted to trade a pick instead and keep Fox to trade him for more value. But the Canes wouldn't do that.

Those that act as if Fox was a "toss in" are spinning things to suit their position.

Bang on, adding fox pushed that trade to being accepted by Carolina.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I would take one Gaudreau who leaves as a UFA over 100 Chris Chuckos.

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

I rather draft Adam Fox than Kris Chucko

You guys are being a little rough on Ol' Chucko. What did do? Kick your dog?

His stats tho....woof.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Hard disagree.



You draft talent. If they don't want to play for you it's still better to have a higher value asset to trade than a lesser asset that likes you.

But how much difference is there in talent in a couple of draft positions? Which are, of course, subjective, and a crap shoot at the best of times. If you're picking at number 40 and 41 is, maybe, slightly less talented but wants to be here and 40 doesn't, why wouldn't you take 41?

[Roughneck]

The whole ‘draft players more likely to re-sign’ thing was already a Flames draft strategy at one point. Most notably in the ‘97 draft when they were deciding between Tkaczuk or Samsonov.

Being good at drafting is hard enough. Adding in another element to reduce your chances of drafting potential roster players (much less impact or All-Star players) doesn’t seem like a good long-term strategy to me.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

IMO the statement by Gross supports the rumour (he said Calgary did everything they could).

That’s pretty broad, and by offering a front loaded $10.5x8, that’s really all they could do. Doesn’t mean there was a specific “ultimatum”… if Gross had said Calgary did “all they were asked to”, I might be more inclined to believe it.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Remember it has been reported that the Canes wouldn't do the deal without Fox. the Flames wanted to trade a pick instead and keep Fox to trade him for more value. But the Canes wouldn't do that.

Those that act as if Fox was a "toss in" are spinning things to suit their position.

That's only because they knew we had Fox, so they insisted on him over a draft pick. If we didn't have him, I personally doubt that it would have held up a deal.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Maybe Gross didnt know the influence of the bigger boss until the 11th hour.

Which is simply a failure by Gross.

Do people think agents are just business robots whose soul purpose is to transmit a number between their client and team? No...they are there to help the human being hockey player (and his family) navigate the hockey business to satisfy their personal goals.

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Crazy how much continent-wide attention Johnny's betrayal/befuddling signing has garnered.

From a local TV station in CGY to a local TV station in Columbus? At least you acknowledge that essentially means crossing the continent...

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I honestly can't believe you're so dense in understanding the plight. Losing Tim Erixon was a learning moment. It should have been an opportunity for the team to re-evaluate how they approach the draft and making sure they continue to stock the system and improve the product on the ice. They should have trained their scouts to have better conversations with the kids they talk to and make sure they have kids with an interest in playing here. Sutter did it but went maybe a bit too far in drafting only certain types of players. This is a team that can't afford to become a feeder to the American franchises. Hey, by all means, continue to pick players that have no interest in playing for the Calgary Flames. It's certain to work to our advantage at some point. It's a bold strategy Cotton.

FFS. Do you think any draft pick outside maybe the top 5 is going to give any hints that they are going to be difficult to sign? Why would they place an unnecessary obstacle between themselves and the NHL? No, though it's possible they may play that card if they've significantly improved their standing since the draft, which also means they've increased their asset trade value.

I'm sure the Erixon thing has been litigated to death here, but wasn't a big part of the issue simply that Gio+Bouw+Regeher (+Pardy+Mikkelson+Brodie)...I might be missing others or maybe some of these contracts were expiring. Flames turned their 23OA pick into Horak+45 (Granlund)+57 (Wotherspoon)

Horak played almost as many games for the Flames (82) as Erixon did in the NHL (93)...and then was half the deal for Smid who played 109 Flames games at a higher calibre than Erixon ever reached.

It was actually really good asset mgmt. Picking Johansson or Palmieri might have been even better, but that would have meant another dastardly Swede and another dastardly American.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by chedder

But how much difference is there in talent in a couple of draft positions? Which are, of course, subjective, and a crap shoot at the best of times. If you're picking at number 40 and 41 is, maybe, slightly less talented but wants to be here and 40 doesn't, why wouldn't you take 41?

How much can you actually know prospect 40 is more/less likely to sign or not than 41?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

How much can you actually know prospect 40 is more/less likely to sign or not than 41?

By using hindsight as if it was fact at the time, of course.