Friedman: Flames have begun extension talks with Gaudreau & Eichel speculation

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

That doesn't make his desired choice wrong.

It doesn't make it right either. When you enter into a contract with someone you are subject to the language of that contract. If they are providing you health insurance you likely have to suck it up and accept the list of providers available to you. Sure, you can go outside your network, but you're on the hook for the cost of that care and then assume any risk associated with that surgery. Part of that risk is assuming insurance to cover yourself. Seems reasonable, no?

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Monahan and Dube are spare parts?

In the same post you are criticizing the Flames for not injecting prospects in the line up you are also labelling one of their top young players, who conseratively has top 9 potential, maybe more, a 'spare part'. It's this type of post, that contradicts itself to attempt to show the team in a negative light, is hard to take seriously. If you're going to criticize them, be consistent and be accurate.

Monahan has been, mostly, an effective C for this team. Sure he has his deficiencies, but I wouldn't be so quick to cast him aside either. He's 26, not 36. As for Dube, there is plenty of reason to be optimistic. If you can't see that, or refuse to, then it's likely you would whine regardless of the scenario. Shame they all can't be Brayden Point, but lets be realistic here. Dube is a solid prospect/young hockey player. I think there are many teams and many fan bases that would be pretty happy to have Dube in the organization.

'Spare part', come on man.....

I don't think he meant spare parts the way you interpreted it. I think it's more in the way that those 3 players have not shown any chemistry playing together, or had any significant time to establish anything.



I for example have a hard time predicting the style of game a line of Dube-Monahan-Pitlick would bring. I see Monahan and Dube as weaker defensively, while I see Pitlick more as a defensive specialist. I don't know if that line needs to be sheltered, or if you try and throw it against the other teams 2nd lines? There are just a lot of unknowns in such a combination. Luckily, there's the off-season and training camp to figure it out.



Just out of curiosity, do you see a clear role for the combination of Dube-Monahan-Pitlick?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

It doesn't make it right either. When you enter into a contract with someone you are subject to the language of that contract. If they are providing you health insurance you likely have to suck it up and accept the list of providers available to you. Sure, you can go outside your network, but you're on the hook for the cost of that care and then assume any risk associated with that surgery. Part of that risk is assuming insurance to cover yourself. Seems reasonable, no?

Of course. Except there is also the option of discussing it with the team to have other possible surgeries be considered and covered.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Of course. Except there is also the option of discussing it with the team to have other possible surgeries be considered and covered.

Sure. They have had those discussions and the determination has been reached. Eichel just doesn't like the outcome.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Royle9

*Unpopular comment alert*

I think its time to start realizing that Eichel is not coming to Calgary, just about everything lately has him linked to NYR including multiple NYR beat writers as of late.

So as much as you think we could put together a better package etc.. its clear Brad isn't willing to throw in the items some of you are using.

Sounds like were going into this season with the same core (Sans Gio) and rolling the dice yet again.

Not a fan of it myself, but its the harsh reality I think we've all got to come to grips with.

From the owners' perspectives, they may believe they've already made a major change...by bringing in Sutter.

[dying4acup]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

It doesn't make it right either. When you enter into a contract with someone you are subject to the language of that contract. If they are providing you health insurance you likely have to suck it up and accept the list of providers available to you. Sure, you can go outside your network, but you're on the hook for the cost of that care and then assume any risk associated with that surgery. Part of that risk is assuming insurance to cover yourself. Seems reasonable, no?

In fairness, the CBA was modified (thus modifying all player contracts) giving teams final say on medical treatment, after Eichel signed his deal. Not that he wouldn’t sign any way, but this wasn’t a term of the contract he signed.

Also, even Eichel paid for the surgery himself, if the team refuses, he is liable for the contract and could be subject to damages payable to the team for breach of contract. He is basically endangering a team asset.

I agree with letting him get his surgery, but he really has no say at the moment. Could be a major CBA issue next negotiation.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Sure. They have had those discussions and the determination has been reached. Eichel just doesn't like the outcome.

And maybe he has valid reasons for that

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I don't think he meant spare parts the way you interpreted it. I think it's more in the way that those 3 players have not shown any chemistry playing together, or had any significant time to establish anything.



I for example have a hard time predicting the style of game a line of Dube-Monahan-Pitlick would bring. I see Monahan and Dube as weaker defensively, while I see Pitlick more as a defensive specialist. I don't know if that line needs to be sheltered, or if you try and throw it against the other teams 2nd lines? There are just a lot of unknowns in such a combination. Luckily, there's the off-season and training camp to figure it out.



Just out of curiosity, do you see a clear role for the combination of Dube-Monahan-Pitlick?

Fair enough, if I misinterpreted the post, then point taken.

as for the proposed line, not too shrug it off, but I suspect Sutter will put forward the lines he feels are best and I am reasonably sure they will change over the course of the season. It's no guarantee Monahan or Dube are even part of the organization come mid-Oct as well.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by 868904

If the Rangers were serious, they can put together a good package in line with Buffalo's ask as Lafreniere or Kaako would be enticing pieces for Buffalo.

If Lafreniere is offered, I don't think there'd be much else in terms of a plus. Maybe Lafreniere and Kratsov and a 2nd?

Kaako's shine has kind of come off but he's still a 2nd overall pick from 2019 so has pedigree. Kaako, a 1st, Chytil, Kravtsov might be enough.

Here is the problem with the Rangers and why they won't get Eichel. The media wants him, the GM can put together an excellent offer, but when the owner of the Sabres tells his GM to trade him West then it doesn't matter.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Sure. They have had those discussions and the determination has been reached. Eichel just doesn't like the outcome.

This is exactly it and why everything is where it is at.

He wants his cake and to it eat too...so to speak.

He wanted his guaranteed contract to be paid by the Sabres without following the Sabres recommendations from their medical experts. That's just not how it works in any business. You want something from your employer? You do and follow what they say.

Like hs been said ad nauseum there is nothing stopping Eichel from getting his preferred surgery except his desire to keep making 10M a year.

[ResAlien]

That feels like very poor reasoning. So if the organization is clown shoes and their solution to the problem is they say he has to chop off his balls then he should chop off his balls? Organizations, especially bush league ones like the Sabres, are notorious for giving terrible medical advice no? Souray in Edmonton comes to mind I believe.

But you’re saying the club is always right so it’s balls chopped off time for Jackie Boy and that’s the end of it?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

That feels like very poor reasoning. So if the organization is clown shoes and their solution to the problem is they say he has to chop off his balls then he should chop off his balls?

Okay, this is just stupid now. The Sabres, the league, or the NHLPA, aren't saying that. They are recommending the most acceptable and widely available corrective surgery for this type of injury and through some of the best surgeons available.

Organizations, especially bush league ones like the Sabres, are notorious for giving terrible medical advice no?

No. The Sabres doctor is actually one of the best in the world at these procedures and has done more procedures than anyone else. Again, he did the surgery on a Bill's player who was a quadriplegic on the turf after a hit, and repaired his spine and made it possible for him to walk again. This doctor sits on the board who approve surgeons, procedures, and techniques like the one that Eichel's doctor is recommending. He was a pioneer in disc replacement surgery and is someone who understands the injury and potential for the surgery to be effective.

Souray in Edmonton comes to mind I believe.

Different injury. Different country. Different team. Different doctors.

But you’re saying the club is always right so it’s balls chopped off time for Jackie Boy and that’s the end of it?

No, what is being said is Eichel can ask for all the surgery he wants, so long as it is provided by doctors approved by the NHL/NHLPA. If he wants to go and get this surgery by a non-sanctioned doctor he assumes responsibility of his action, which means self-insurance and risk of giving up the remainder of his contract should something go sideways.

[Icon]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

No, what is being said is Eichel can ask for all the surgery he wants, so long as it is provided by doctors approved by the NHL/NHLPA. If he wants to go and get this surgery by a non-sanctioned doctor he assumes responsibility of his action, which means self-insurance and risk of giving up the remainder of his contract should something go sideways.

So if he insists on the surgery that the team doesn't agree with... are either of the following true?:

1) Eichel has grounds to end his contract (does he become a UFA)?
2) The team has grounds to terminate his contract (would be a UFA too)?

In other words, does this situation ever turn into him being a UFA, if so would that be for next season instead (is there a cutoff-date)?

[Southside]

Originally Posted by Icon

So if he insists on the surgery that the team doesn't agree with... are either of the following true?:

1) Eichel has grounds to end his contract (does he become a UFA)?
2) The team has grounds to terminate his contract (would be a UFA too)?

In other words, does this situation ever turn into him being a UFA, if so would that be for next season instead (is there a cutoff-date)?

I'm thinking more likely suspended without pay, but I don't know that.

[Sofa GM]

Originally Posted by Southside

I'm thinking more likely suspended without pay, but I don't know that.

I don’t think it gets that far, they move to recover assets cause it only gets worse from there.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Icon

So if he insists on the surgery that the team doesn't agree with... are either of the following true?:

1) Eichel has grounds to end his contract (does he become a UFA)?
2) The team has grounds to terminate his contract (would be a UFA too)?

In other words, does this situation ever turn into him being a UFA, if so would that be for next season instead (is there a cutoff-date)?

I don't think contract termination is likely. Eichel doesn't appear to have grounds to ask for his contract to be nullified. The Sabres would never let their best asset leave for no return, so will not terminate it. There is a contract in place and both parties need to comply.

The worst case scenario here, and I'm talking The Day After scenario, would be if Eichel went against the agreement in the CBA and got the surgery of his liking, then the Sabres and league would launch some type of legal action against the player and the NHLPA. The PA would then have to make the call of backing the player or the agreement that works for everyone else, and is modeled off the other big sports programs. This would be dangerous as it would force the leagues and PAs to pick sides, and then a wage war over a mechanism meant to give the players the best care possible while keeping those costs under control. This would drag all leagues into the mess as this would be a driver to remove this responsibility from the clubs/leagues and transfer it to the individual players. That would mean players would then have to either self-insure, or the players associations would have to create an insurance pool of their own and assume the responsibility of running that aspect of the business. It would fundamentally change how teams run, how players train, and how players take care of their injuries. The guys who are superstars would have awesome coverage, and the guys who are paid league minimum would be subject to the same level care the average Joe gets. Again, this is like a Mad Max Thunderdome level outcome, which I don't think it would get to. I think the rank and file of the NHLPA would not allow this to meltdown to that level.

I think the Sabres ultimately trade him to someone willing to let him have the surgery, but do so with some potential to assume more risk. I'm thinking some conditional picks based on games played post-surgery makes the most sense. I think everyone gets what they want here, its just going to take a little softening from Adams.

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by Southside

I'm thinking more likely suspended without pay, but I don't know that.

How can you suspend an injured player? I feel that would go to the courts at that point.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

How can you suspend an injured player? I feel that would go to the courts at that point.

The CBA already allows teams to suspend a player who becomes injured as a result of non-hockey activities. Getting surgery without the team's approval is certainly a non-hockey activity.

[Enoch Root]

I don't see any useful and productive path for the Sabres, other than to cooperate with Eichel and either grant him the approval to do the surgery he wants, or trade him to another team that will.

Anything else just reduces the value of their asset.

[FanIn80]

OK, so... essentially what you guys are all saying is that there's no new news.