10-31-2023, 03:56 PM
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#3041
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evil of fart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manhattanboy
The sad reality is that even if Hamas understands the concept of cause and effect, which I doubt, they certainly don’t care. Israel is not dealing with rational actors here.
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Sacrificing their own people (who they don't give a fk about) to fuel world disdain for the way Israel operates seems darkly strategic to me. Who didn't anticipate Israel going completely ballistic and becoming absolute monsters to Gaza within 10 seconds of hearing about Hamas' terrorist attack on Israel?
I think they provoked Israel into acting in a despicable manner and it will ultimately hurt Israel's standing in the world due to Israel playing into their hands.
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10-31-2023, 04:13 PM
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#3043
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Calgary
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What happens after Hamas though? For there to be stability long term, and no new Hezbollah or other extremist group popping up, there has to be some sort of economic future for Gazans.
What is the future for the average Palestinian? None of their neighbours want to take any of them in, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon have all previous accepted them, all to disasterous results for the host countries. Further stable Middle Eastern countries like Saudia Arabia, UAE, Bahrain have ruled them out. They've rejected a one state solution, and even a two state solution where 95% of all land in the West Bank and all of Gaza would have been ceded back to them and Israel would have been required to evict almost half a million Jewish settlers from the West Bank.
I don't really think there was a more generous chance on the table than the last two state solution offer under the Sharon gov't, and Hamas sabotaged that one. After this Hamas attack on Israel I seriously doubt a future peace agreement will be anywhere near as generous. Same issue again in 20 years?
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10-31-2023, 04:16 PM
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#3044
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Farm Team Player
Join Date: Aug 2009
Exp: 
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People who've studied and understand war often argue that the best way to end a war, and thereby minimize human suffering, is to use the maximum force possible. In this case, bombing locations below which Hamas has setup command posts, even if they are refugee camps, in order to win and end the war, is going to reduce the overall levels of human suffering this war creates.
Is the bombing of a refugee camp a tragedy? Absolutely. Is it legal and justified, yes, it is, given Hamas started this war and is attempting to use human shields to protect its commanders.
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10-31-2023, 04:20 PM
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#3045
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Pickle Jar Lake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobotTalk
People who've studied and understand war often argue that the best way to end a war, and thereby minimize human suffering, is to use the maximum force possible. In this case, bombing locations below which Hamas has setup command posts, even if they are refugee camps, in order to win and end the war, is going to reduce the overall levels of human suffering this war creates.
Is the bombing of a refugee camp a tragedy? Absolutely. Is it legal and justified, yes, it is, given Hamas started this war and is attempting to use human shields to protect its commanders.
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Well it's nice you've come to a conclusion that murdering refugees is justified so firmly.
Man the world is full of horrible people.
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10-31-2023, 04:28 PM
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#3046
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: North America
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10-31-2023, 04:32 PM
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#3047
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Farm Team Player
Join Date: Aug 2009
Exp:
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Wrong, actually. I'd prefer there was no war being fought at all, but if there is a war then it should be fought in such a way as to end it quickly to minimize suffering. In this case, taking out Hamas' leadership and ability to sustain its fighting power should be the number one, overriding priority and everything else should be secondary. Anything less will just prolong the war, prolong the suffering, and lead to more people being killed.
I'd leave you with two quotes, from a now-deceased US General that knew more about how to fight and win a war than anyone here:
"Every soldier thinks something of the moral aspects of what he is doing. But all war is immoral and if you let that bother you, you're not a good soldier."
"Actually, I think it's more immoral to use less force than necessary, than it is to use more. if you use less force, you kill off more of humanity in the long run, because you are merely protracting the struggle."
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10-31-2023, 04:34 PM
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#3048
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Scoring Winger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobotTalk
People who've studied and understand war often argue that the best way to end a war, and thereby minimize human suffering, is to use the maximum force possible. In this case, bombing locations below which Hamas has setup command posts, even if they are refugee camps, in order to win and end the war, is going to reduce the overall levels of human suffering this war creates.
Is the bombing of a refugee camp a tragedy? Absolutely. Is it legal and justified, yes, it is, given Hamas started this war and is attempting to use human shields to protect its commanders.
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So if Hamas says that they also kill civilians in order to try and scare the other side and end the occupation/settlements, you would accept that as valid?
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10-31-2023, 04:36 PM
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#3049
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Powerplay Quarterback
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobotTalk
snip.
I'd leave you with two quotes, from a now-deceased US General that knew more about how to fight and win a war than anyone here:
"Every soldier thinks something of the moral aspects of what he is doing. But all war is immoral and if you let that bother you, you're not a good soldier."
"Actually, I think it's more immoral to use less force than necessary, than it is to use more. if you use less force, you kill off more of humanity in the long run, because you are merely protracting the struggle."
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Quoting LeMay, one of the greatest warmongers in recent history.
Without McNamara to balance his drive to destroy all, we would all likely be in a smoldering crater right now.
Last edited by Flacker; 10-31-2023 at 04:40 PM.
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10-31-2023, 04:39 PM
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#3050
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sliver
Bombing civilians to save civilians. Israel really can do no wrong in your eyes here lol.
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The line in the sand has been crossed, Israel has every right to make sure this doesn't happen again, to beat savages you need to get savage
And yes bombing civilians can save civilians in the long run, it's estimated that the atomic bombs dropped on Japan saved upwards of 30 million people.
Ask yourself, if Hamas is allowed to keep going how long before they get their hands on a WMD like a nuke or a dirty bomb? imagine the hero posters and calibrations in Gaza for the martyr who got to drive a nuke loaded van into Tel Aviv.
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10-31-2023, 04:43 PM
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#3051
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Farm Team Player
Join Date: Aug 2009
Exp:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCW Nitro
So if Hamas says that they also kill civilians in order to try and scare the other side and end the occupation/settlements, you would accept that as valid?
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I didn't say Israel was justified in bombing targets hidden under civilian sites (refugee camps/hospitals/schools) because it put fear in the population and that's how they'll defeat hamas. They're justified in doing it because taking out Hamas' leadership (as was the case here, where they hit a senior commander) and ability to wage war (by bombing arms stocks, fuel depots, other combat supporting infrastructure) will shorten the war, ergo hitting those targets is justified.
None of the attacks against civilians Hamas engaged in on Oct. 7 were in anyway designed to degrade Israel's combat power. They were purely designed to provoke an Israeli reaction in the hopes of derailing Saudi-Israeli normalization, religious extremism (the whole Islamists killing infidel thing we've been dealing with for the last 20 odd years, and (likely, but this claim is a bit more speculative) out of a desire for retribution for perceived Israeli crimes.
It's like the Israeli's not letting in fuel supplies. Without fuel, eventually Hamas won't be able to maintain life support systems in their tunnels. Until those tunnels are uninhabitable, they remain a major obstacle to ending the war so making those tunnels uninhabitable has to be a priority even if it creates civilian suffering. It's tragic, but it's a war, and after Hamas' Oct. 7 crimes there can be no justifying Hamas' continued existence.
Last edited by RobotTalk; 10-31-2023 at 04:47 PM.
Reason: typo
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10-31-2023, 04:46 PM
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#3052
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Farm Team Player
Join Date: Aug 2009
Exp:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flacker
Quoting LeMay, one of the greatest warmongers in recent history.
Without McNamara to balance his drive to destroy all, we would all likely be in a smoldering crater right now.
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LeMay wasn't wrong though - once you've decided to go to war you better fight as hard as you can until it's over and you've won or lost. It's not really surprising that since western countries instituted the concept of proportionality in the post-war period we've been defeated, repeatedly.
Maybe it's time to listen to the ideas of those who won wars versus those (like McNamara) that just got 'us' involved in quagmires that created prolonged death, misery, instability while costing astronomical amounts.
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10-31-2023, 04:50 PM
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#3053
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: east van
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It seems fatuous to expect Israel to live by some legal code when Hamas hasn't, you can't have it both ways, Hamas represents Gaza, they aren't in power against the wishes of the residents, they are wholly representative of their people, probably way more so than the Israeli Government
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10-31-2023, 05:21 PM
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#3054
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afc wimbledon
it seems fatuous to expect israel to live by some legal code when hamas hasn't, you can't have it both ways, hamas represents gaza, they aren't in power against the wishes of the residents, they are wholly representative of their people, probably way more so than the israeli government
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https://twitter.com/user/status/1718973338486260097
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10-31-2023, 05:55 PM
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#3055
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Ate 100 Treadmills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chemgear
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Not surprising. Hamas is an organization that does everything they can to piss off Israel, who will in response tighten their blockade. Then Hamas turns around and imposes extremely high taxes on the goods that people smuggle into Gaza. Meanwhile, the leaders are multi-millionaires, who often live in luxury properties abroad.
Suffering of their own people is just a business for them, a very profitable business
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10-31-2023, 06:17 PM
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#3056
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afc wimbledon
It seems fatuous to expect Israel to live by some legal code when Hamas hasn't, you can't have it both ways, Hamas represents Gaza, they aren't in power against the wishes of the residents, they are wholly representative of their people, probably way more so than the Israeli Government
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I wonder how much water, food, medicine, and supplies Hamas has horded right now that could go to their population instead of continuing to fight.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
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10-31-2023, 06:24 PM
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#3057
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Scoring Winger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobotTalk
I didn't say Israel was justified in bombing targets hidden under civilian sites (refugee camps/hospitals/schools) because it put fear in the population and that's how they'll defeat hamas. They're justified in doing it because taking out Hamas' leadership (as was the case here, where they hit a senior commander) and ability to wage war (by bombing arms stocks, fuel depots, other combat supporting infrastructure) will shorten the war, ergo hitting those targets is justified.
None of the attacks against civilians Hamas engaged in on Oct. 7 were in anyway designed to degrade Israel's combat power. They were purely designed to provoke an Israeli reaction in the hopes of derailing Saudi-Israeli normalization, religious extremism (the whole Islamists killing infidel thing we've been dealing with for the last 20 odd years, and (likely, but this claim is a bit more speculative) out of a desire for retribution for perceived Israeli crimes.
It's like the Israeli's not letting in fuel supplies. Without fuel, eventually Hamas won't be able to maintain life support systems in their tunnels. Until those tunnels are uninhabitable, they remain a major obstacle to ending the war so making those tunnels uninhabitable has to be a priority even if it creates civilian suffering. It's tragic, but it's a war, and after Hamas' Oct. 7 crimes there can be no justifying Hamas' continued existence.
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What I am saying is if Hamas says that in their calculations they did the attacks to put pressure and end the occupation/settlements, would that be acceptable to you? Or is it only Israel which is allowed to kill civilians?
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10-31-2023, 06:41 PM
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#3058
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Pickle Jar Lake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afc wimbledon
It seems fatuous to expect Israel to live by some legal code when Hamas hasn't, you can't have it both ways, Hamas represents Gaza, they aren't in power against the wishes of the residents, they are wholly representative of their people, probably way more so than the Israeli Government
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Good Lord, do you know how democracy works? Am I now responsible for every decision Danelle Smith makes?
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10-31-2023, 07:19 PM
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#3060
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afc wimbledon
It seems fatuous to expect Israel to live by some legal code when Hamas hasn't, you can't have it both ways, Hamas represents Gaza, they aren't in power against the wishes of the residents, they are wholly representative of their people, probably way more so than the Israeli Government
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https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showth...88#post8844988
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