[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by dammage79

On point to the thread title. Elias Lindholm is what this teams needed. Can do his own think and be effective with other players . His toolbox has been a versatile and positive addition. Where he may not be scoring at almost a ppg pace right now, he's still a positive contributor and every other aspect of the game. Still only 23.

And here for half a decade

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by Bingo

As was pointed out to you ... context matters.

[SportsJunky]

Some posters on here must have a big pair of clanking balls on them.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I will say this gang, I'll take a look at my posting style for sure. I certainly don't want to come across as elitist or looking down on others, as that's certainly not my aim.

Only seems to have pissed off a handful, but if you give any one the feeling you think you're better than they are, then you had better look at yourself.

Do appreciate those that came to my defense that I'd assume know me well.

I would suggest you don't change your posting style.



How in God's name is it elitist to do some of your own stats analysis, then come to your own conclusion? People who take exception to it are off base.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Well, yes. As a paying customer who drops thousands of dollars a year on this team, a clearly incompetent coach who is unable to actually manage a roster and coach a game does piss me off. And while I'm not sold on Peters as of yet, he certainly is a considerable upgrade in this regard.

And here's the dumb thing, Bingo. I don't hate those stats. I'm even prone to using them myself from time to time. But when I look at the issues Gulutzan had, and yes, I look at the results it generated, and I say this coach is a problem who needs to go, and then I am basically told "no, none of that matters, because home plate scoring chances", well, yeah. Ridicule is going to happen.

Because when I'm told over and over again about how great his HDSC% was when I actually suffer through those games and can see, right in front of me, how few actual high danger scoring chances we created under his system, it grates.

I know you watch the games too Bingo, so this is the difference between you and I: When your eyes tell you one thing and your spreadsheet tells you another, you'll default to the latter. I'm the reverse. When the spreadsheet tells me this team was an exciting line-up creating chance after chance, and yet I was bored out of my mind every time I went to a Flames game, I'm going to trust my eyes.

I'm not one to utter things like "none of that matters". I did take exception to those that put their own eye test on a pedestal that trumped all else for sure, but I think I'm a better listener (reader) than you're giving me credit for.

My issue with Gulutzan was leadership. The team seemed to outplay or hold serve in so many games until something went wrong then they imploded.

That speaks to a weak locker room which is likely still true. And if that's the case you need a better leader as a coach.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Buff

Sorry for derailing this thread with discussion related to the trade.

With Lindholm scoring this weekend I thought I'd take a look at the stats on each of theplayers involved. So far the trade is a wash, it seems to be working out for both teams. The part that I find interesting is Adam Fox's first game of the season. 5 points!!!! He somehow managed to still be -1 though.

The one element even if one was hell bent on assessing this trade as early as the first month of play, that hasn't been discussed enough?

Hanifin and Hamonic injury.

The season was to have had that pairing, and they got a half game in Vancouver, then the last two games only. In between he's had to play with a rookie or Stone which was never the plan.

Hanifin was 86% .... 64% and 65% with Hamonic in scoring chance splits this season, and without him he only made it to 50% once.

And then what does that say about the Hamonic Brodie pairing last year? Was Hamonic trying to save something that was just too tough to save? Was Brodie on the left side just too much for Brodie to handle?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

...They didn’t fold their tent against Washington when down 2 early, so there is that, which is nice.

Add to that the home opener and the Colorado game, and I have actually been fairly impressed by how the Flames have responded when things go wrong this season. It certainly feels different with Peters behind the bench. (But then again, I watched neither the game in Montreal nor that against Pittsburgh.)

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Gulutzan was clearly not a capable coach, but again, Hartley's Flames were not all "heart n' soul" either. The same team that experienced the Flames's greatest recent success is also the same team that drafted #4 overall the following year.

1) Tkachuk was a 6th overall, not 4th. While Hartley picked Bennett 4th overall, that was the prior year, and I would argue that both the 2013-14 and 2014-15 Flames teams were expected to finish bottom ~two-ish given their total vacuum of talent at every single position (even Giordano wasn't ever considered a #1D before Hartley's arrival) - so 4th / 15th overall picks were both overachievements, all things considred.

2) Hartley couldn't overcome league-worst goaltending. This is different from having a team that somehow lost all ability to score and doing absolutely nothing to actually fix that issue other than hope the plinko chips landed more kindly.

Originally Posted by Bingo

And then what does that say about the Hamonic Brodie pairing last year? Was Hamonic trying to save something that was just too tough to save? Was Brodie on the left side just too much for Brodie to handle?

I've said it many a time to deaf ears, the problem with Brodie-Hamonic was not on the defensive end*, but on the offensive end where Brodie would pass laterally across to Hamonic who would do nothing offensively because he doesn't have much of a game from the point. Brodie needs a partner who can shoot - Stone, Giordano, probably would have worked with Hamilton or Andersson but we've never seen that. But people always point to failed pairings as somehow always just being unable to deal with their own zone. Yes, Brodie had some giveaways, magnified by the moment, but that was not what dragged the pair down.

Hanifin has a bit more of a game from the point and is more of a shooter than Brodie, so the pair is simply more balanced.

*although in the first half of the season Hamonic's gap control was an issue no one seemed to admit to

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Add to that the home opener and the Colorado game, and I have actually been fairly impressed by how the Flames have responded when things go wrong this season. It certainly feels different with Peters behind the bench. (But then again, I watched neither the game in Montreal nor that against Pittsburgh.)

Consider yourself lucky, they were ugly games. I can’t remember who said this last year(maybe Bingo?), but it was something to the effect of being able to predict the outcome of a team by their recent play. For instance, Calgary had begun to slack off yet still won a game in NY that they didn’t deserve, then went on to lose two straight. Now we still lost to the Caps, but there were signs of us carrying the play and doing a lot of the little things right. I hope that translates into a win tonight, but at the very least I hope we continue to play strong.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I would suggest you don't change your posting style.



How in God's name is it elitist to do some of your own stats analysis, then come to your own conclusion? People who take exception to it are off base.

GRIT index shows this is not necessarily true.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

1) Tkachuk was a 6th overall, not 4th. While Hartley picked Bennett 4th overall, that was the prior year, and I would argue that both the 2013-14 and 2014-15 Flames teams were expected to finish bottom ~two-ish given their total vacuum of talent at every single position (even Giordano wasn't ever considered a #1D before Hartley's arrival) - so 4th / 15th overall picks were both overachievements, all things considred.

2) Hartley couldn't overcome league-worst goaltending. This is different from having a team that somehow lost all ability to score and doing absolutely nothing to actually fix that issue other than hope the plinko chips landed more kindly.



I've said it many a time to deaf ears, the problem with Brodie-Hamonic was not on the defensive end*, but on the offensive end where Brodie would pass laterally across to Hamonic who would do nothing offensively because he doesn't have much of a game from the point. Brodie needs a partner who can shoot - Stone, Giordano, probably would have worked with Hamilton or Andersson but we've never seen that.

Brodie has only 48 Dmen with 500+ min played give up more Corsi events against last year.

Only 50 gave up more high danger chances.

He was last on the flames in both

212 dmen played 500 minutes or more so that’s 5+ defensemen per team were ahead of him defensively.

It wasn’t an offence problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Iceman57]

https://twitter.com/NHLCanes/status/...229449221?s=09

Sent from my SM-T377W using Tapatalk

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Iceman57

https://twitter.com/NHLCanes/status/...229449221?s=09

Sent from my SM-T377W using Tapatalk

Oh Dougie. It's weird because he gets the museum rap but he kind of looks like the class clown.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Oh Dougie. It's weird because he gets the museum rap but he kind of looks like the class clown.

Agreed - there is something wierd about it for sure.

Observation 1: He likes to be the centre of attention.

Observation 2: He only wants to do what interests him. If it interests you, but doesn't interest him...he'd rather go to the museum

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Brodie has only 48 Dmen with 500+ min played give up more Corsi events against last year.

Only 50 gave up more high danger chances.

He was last on the flames in both

212 dmen played 500 minutes or more so that’s 5+ defensemen per team were ahead of him defensively.

It wasn’t an offence problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Technically they don’t have to be mutually exclusive ideas.

Plays dying at the blue line from failed offensive events are very high risk in creating high danger chances.

I think the problem certainly included poor in zone coverage, but absolutely the idea of poor offensive zone chemistry could be a factor in Brodie’s horrendous season.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Calgary4LIfe]

The game against the Leafs is where I think the eye test will correspond incredibly well with the stats - Flames had a tonne of high danger chances, no? Andersen had to move quite a bit in net tonight. Flames were guilty of over-passing it at times, but boy did the Leafs do a piss-poor job of preventing cross-crease passing.


This is an area that I voiced my disdain on Gulutzan's system and how it wasn't dangerous in the offensive zone, regardless of what the high danger chances stats told us it was. This was a much better example of 'actual'(?) high danger chances for. The Leafs were lucky to have that game close, actually - Andersen was very good, and the Flames just didn't connect on some sure goals in some others.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Elias Lindholm is good at hockey.

[SuperMatt18]

Dammit I’m going to go crazy now trying to figure out what the other trade that Peters is referring to on draft night was.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Dammit I’m going to go crazy now trying to figure out what the other trade that Peters is referring to on draft night was.

What did he say?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

What did he say?

Something along the lines of “When I went to bed the night before I thought we had made a different trade, when I woke up the next morning I was surprised we made the trade we did with good players going both ways.”