The Winter's Coming Winter Tires Thread

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by d00little

Have a set of older (7 years), cheaper winters we are going to slap on the old Murano one last winter. Our main driver is a Volvo XC90 with new Hakkas.

After this season with the old winters, I was thinking of just going all year round with All-Weather Nokian WRG4's. How would those compare for winter driving versus older, cheaper winters? If the weather got really bad we could drive on the Hakkas.

Honestly bro if u drive half decent i am sure bearable. I ran Bridgestone ectopic on a crv... kinda like Murano not bad. On a truck all weather. It's about speed and leaving distance.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by d00little

Have a set of older (7 years), cheaper winters we are going to slap on the old Murano one last winter. Our main driver is a Volvo XC90 with new Hakkas.

After this season with the old winters, I was thinking of just going all year round with All-Weather Nokian WRG4's. How would those compare for winter driving versus older, cheaper winters? If the weather got really bad we could drive on the Hakkas.

I didn't use the WRG4, but the Nokians I used I think were the WRG3. I had them on a previous vehicle for around 3 years.

By the third year I'd sorta have to admit towards driving speed limit/slightly below for mountain inclement weather conditions as I would have if the vehicle had all seasons. But city driving was still good/slightly above average vs all seasons. I drove on them year round, so basically by year 3 they were arguably on their 6th+ season? The vehicle did have AWD so I assume that helps slightly in balancing the tire wear for front and back?

Their winter performance is IMO slightly above the cheapest winter tires and just slightly below a mid level winter tire. WRG4 should be an excellent option for a vehicle that primarily is used in the city with the occasional road trip. How it stacks against many other all weather tires though, I'm not sure. I wouldn't hesitate to say WRG4 is a good option if someone only wanted one set of tires though.

[fotze2]

Are these any good?

NOKIAN TYRES HAKKAPELIITTA R5 SUV ~$1000 at KalTire

Also, what is a bottom end crappy rim normally cost? Subaru wanted to charge $250/rim which seemed insane? I seem to remember paying a lot less than that in the past?

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by fotze2

Are these any good?

NOKIAN TYRES HAKKAPELIITTA R5 SUV ~$1000 at KalTire

Also, what is a bottom end crappy rim normally cost? Subaru wanted to charge $250/rim which seemed insane? I seem to remember paying a lot less than that in the past?

Hakkapelitta tires are IMO one of the best performing winter tires you can buy. It's a noticeable difference vs a low quality and mid quality winter tire.

Steel rims... it depends. What size are you looking at? Yeah, rims are a little more expensive, but many people forget they're driving bigger vehicles now that are bumping up the size they're buying by 1-3" (ie: 15-17" in past to 17-19" now).

[chedder]

Originally Posted by fotze2

Are these any good?

NOKIAN TYRES HAKKAPELIITTA R5 SUV ~$1000 at KalTire

Also, what is a bottom end crappy rim normally cost? Subaru wanted to charge $250/rim which seemed insane? I seem to remember paying a lot less than that in the past?

Sounds reasonable for the tires. Check out canadawheels.com. I've bought 3 sets of rims over the years. Usually find decent looking aluminum for $150-170 per. Steelies are $120 now, look terrible and rust. Worth the extra couple hundred for aluminum. You can buy the entire package of wheels and tires too but I doubt they have Nokian.

Could also show kaltire the rim prices online that you like and see what they'll do.

Always seems to be around $2000 for a sett of rims and decent winters after mounting, taxes etc.

[Fuzz]

The Subaru steelies we got are in far better condition than the super cheap ones I got for my truck. I think they were $45 each back in 2012(truck). The Subaru ones have a touch of rust, but not bad. Bought in fall 2014. My truck ones might just disintegrate this winter. So you are probably getting better rims than the cheapest you find online.

I had them throw them in with tires. Definitely try to negotiate this on any new vehicle purchase, they have big markups so don't cost them all that much as an incentive. Subaru wouldn't budge on vehicle price, but I didn't have to fight for this bonus.

[Shazam]

Also with alloy rims you can actually clean your wheels properly. Steelies are impossible to clean properly.

[Ryan Coke]

Www.pmctire.com

Don’t buy steelies if your car is worth more than $10k. It isn’t that great a delta.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

Www.pmctire.com

Don’t buy steelies if your car is worth more than $10k. It isn’t that great a delta.

In our climate, your winters are on as much or more than summers. I couldn't stand to look at ugly rims on my car, which isn't even that great of a car.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by chedder

Sounds reasonable for the tires. Check out canadawheels.com. I've bought 3 sets of rims over the years. Usually find decent looking aluminum for $150-170 per. Steelies are $120 now, look terrible and rust. Worth the extra couple hundred for aluminum. You can buy the entire package of wheels and tires too but I doubt they have Nokian.

Could also show kaltire the rim prices online that you like and see what they'll do.

Always seems to be around $2000 for a sett of rims and decent winters after mounting, taxes etc.

Is that the site Costco uses? Their rims are inexpensive and seem decent enough.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s been mentioned about a hundred times in this thread that the tire itself matters, and that not all all weathers or all winters are created equal.

Plus, they do wear out. My kid drove all year on his winters because he worked at the icefields in the summer and he couldn't be bothered to switch - he went off the road and when I looked at his winters I knew why. Needless to say, he was on new tires asap.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

In our climate, your winters are on as much or more than summers. I couldn't stand to look at ugly rims on my car, which isn't even that great of a car.

Isn't that what wheel cover kits are for?

https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/a...w.ds#store=419

$20-30 a wheel after the first year ain't bad if the plan was to save some money/protect cash flow.

18"+ though, steelies are uncomfortably heavy. That's primarily why I paid a little more and got alloys. 19-20" mounted steelies, I'd probably look like someone trying to lift an Atlas stone when swapping tires. I can just barely do 19" alloys on my own as is.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Is that the site Costco uses? Their rims are inexpensive and seem decent enough.

I don't know about that. I've just had great luck with them 3 times. I even broke a tab off a centre cap and they sent me a new one for free. They seem to sell many of the wheel brands you see elsewhere.

[bossy22]

Originally Posted by fotze2

Are these any good?

NOKIAN TYRES HAKKAPELIITTA R5 SUV ~$1000 at KalTire

Also, what is a bottom end crappy rim normally cost? Subaru wanted to charge $250/rim which seemed insane? I seem to remember paying a lot less than that in the past?

I'm running Hakka's on my V90cc and my wife's Tesla, and I just got them installed on my son's Elantra. I obviously really like them. For rims Kal Tire charged $77 per rim for my son's Elantra. It was a 15 inch steel rim. I'm guessing a 19 inch would be quite a bit more.

[TorqueDog]

I finally had my first test with the Pirelli Winters. Put Terrain Response in 'Sand' mode due to the snow consistency -- "Grass, Gravel, Snow" is better suited to packed snow, I find -- and decided to go bomb around for a bit, run some errands while everyone else is sheltering at home.

... and I'm officially unstoppable. MWAHAHA. Watching as the center and rear diffs apply varying degrees of locking in real-time as I'm accelerating from a dead stop is cool too.

[lazypucker]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

... and I'm officially unstoppable. MWAHAHA....

Isn't this actually a bad thing for winter driving?

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by lazypucker

Isn't this actually a bad thing for winter driving?

Figuratively, not literally. Stopping is quite good too, but of course it all comes down to braking at the appropriate time and not flying around like an eejit.

[Shazam]

Holy crap, there's a new symbol for winter tires - Ice Grip.

I'm quoting verbatim from the G&M because y'all need to know this.

Winter is coming if it has not already arrived where you live, and for most Canadian motorists who drive though snow and ice, it’s smart to have winter tires. But are those tires good enough?

Until recently, there have been two official grades of winter tire, with their identification stamped right on the sidewall: “mud and snow” (M+S) and “three-peak mountain snowflake” (an outline of a mountain with a snowflake in the middle). M+S tires have no actual requirements aside from the manufacturer’s own classification; there are no official tests of their abilities. They were introduced in the 1970s with generally blockier tread, more capable of dispersing snow and mud than the ribbed tires of the time. The symbol is often found on all-season tires.

Mountain snowflake tires were introduced in the 1990s as a true winter tire, with softer rubber that has more grip on cold pavement, and a more aggressive tread for better traction on snow and ice. They existed in some form long before they were classified as such, but the symbol on the sidewall is a guarantee that they’ve passed testing sanctioned by the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) to be certified for winter use.

Manufacturers and driving experts recommend that if you drive in temperatures below 7 degrees Celsius, you should switch to winter tires for better grip. This is not a cash grab: The tires you remove at the end of the fall will be preserved for reinstallation in the spring, and your two sets of tires will last twice as long. That said, there may be a cost for installation and storage, and probably an investment in a second set of steel rims for the winter. In Quebec, winter tires are compulsory from Dec. 1 to March 15, and in British Columbia, many interior highways require tires to have at least an M+S rating for winter use.

However, there are many different levels of quality found within tires that have the three-peak mountain snowflake symbol. The only qualification to be certified by the ISO is that the tire is able to accelerate 10 per cent better through mid-packed snow than a standard reference all-season tire. There is no test for braking or for lateral grip on ice.

“When the three-peak symbol came in, I thought, ‘Finally, we can have a tire with good ratings,’ until I figured out how they did the testing,” says Jeff McKague, the president of Event Matrix, which tests tires in real-world conditions for manufacturers and retailers. In his opinion, the symbol is intended more to prove a tire is legal in conditions that require it, such as winter in Quebec or on B.C.’s mountain roads, than prove it is capable of actually handling winter’s highly variable conditions.

Now there is a new rating for winter tires, as a complement to the existing ratings: the ice grip symbol (a triangle with an icy peak) is stamped on the sidewall of winter tires that can brake to a stop on ice at least 18-per-cent more efficiently than the standard reference tire. This is a very different requirement to just chewing through snow, and it now identifies those better-quality winter tires capable of such superior braking.

“The ‘ice grip’ is more of a real-world braking and traction test in icier conditions,” says Gordie Henderson, the director of passenger car and light truck retail products for Kal Tire. “The three-peak mountain snowflake [test] is done on medium to hard-packed snow, but doesn’t take it beyond that point. When you think of a snowstorm, if there’s any liquid in the snow, it’s going to pack, and when it packs it starts to freeze, and when it freezes, it turns to ice. That’s where the ice grip will make the difference.

“The three-peak mountain snowflake is more of a spin-traction test for acceleration, and the ice grip is more of a real-life, on-the-vehicle braking test.”

Aside from having specially designed tread and sipe (groove) patterns for sucking the tire to the ground and dispersing the ice and snow, winter tires are also made from a rubber compound that’s more pliable in colder weather. “As a rule of thumb, you should opt for a winter tire if it’s consistently below 7.2 degrees Celsius in your area,” says Jenny Paige, the director of consumer product planning for Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co.

“Many people don’t realize that all-weather and winter tires may be more appropriate in freezing temperatures, not just snow. The special rubber compounds in all-weather and winter tires are designed to help increase pliability at low temperatures to provide enhanced traction in more severe winter weather conditions including ice, slush, freezing rain and snow.”

In fact, non-winter tires do not become suddenly incapable below 7 degrees Celsius. The temperature is a direct conversion of 45 degrees Fahrenheit, which is a number easy to remember for American consumers. That is the temperature at which most summer tires, made from soft and sticky rubber for superior performance on sports cars, become too hard for safe use on asphalt. All-season tires can maintain safe pliability at colder temperatures but if you’re going to swap over your rubber, the rule of thumb of 7 degrees Celsius is sound advice.

All-weather tires are more capable in cold temperatures and for driving through snow and ice than all-season tires and do not need to be swapped over when the seasons change. They’re more durable on hot asphalt in the summer. They normally qualify for a three-peak mountain snowflake symbol but are not as capable in winter conditions as dedicated winter tires. However, they may suit many drivers who live in balmier areas of Canada, or who do not have to venture out in bad weather.

The new ice grip symbol was agreed upon by the ISO in 2021, but not all tires that deserve it will have the symbol stamped on their sidewalls. Kal Tire’s Henderson says many manufacturers do not want the expense of retrofitting their machinery to include the stamp until the next generation of the tire is ready. Until then, it’s best to look at the test results and ask your tire dealer for a recommendation.

“Tire makers focus on three aspects when designing tires: tire wear (longevity), rolling resistance (fuel efficiency) and traction,” says Michal Majernik, the head of communications for the Tire and Rubber Association of Canada. “Each aspect of this performance triangle affects the other two, meaning that, for example, if the tire is meant to provide extra traction, the other two performance aspects will be affected negatively. Tire makers aim to expand this performance triangle evenly.

“Just as with any product, there are tradeoffs. So, the tires that pass this [traction]? test may have a softer compound or may lack in other areas of performance. We recommend drivers discuss their winter driving habits and road conditions with a tire specialist to determine whether a tire with the ice grip symbol is right for them.”

[btimbit]

I like that.

I've always argued that stopping distance is what matters when people claim "oh my tires are fine, I don't spin off the line"

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I like that.

I've always argued that stopping distance is what matters when people claim "oh my tires are fine, I don't spin off the line"

Yeah. 4WD / AWD is great for not getting stuck even on sub-par tires, but it does nothing for stopping; every car has four-wheel braking, so pick the best tires you can afford.