American Politics Thread: The Hunt for Blue November

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

You've got that backwards. These shootings aren't happening in a bubble. The experience of systemic racism isn't extrapolated from these shootings as much as these shootings are viewed as unacceptable manifestations of systemic racism that people already know from lifetimes of experience.

Not everyone has the experiences in their life to know systemic racism already exists, and that's part of what systemic racism is. It's why people who don't know it from their own experience should listen first.

Okay, the shooting of Jacob Blake is a manifestation/evidence of systemic racism. How? I think you're begging the question. You have to assume systemic racism exists in order to consider Jacob Blake's shooting evidence of same.

If system racism is actually systemic, then its existence should be easy to verify.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

Okay, the shooting of Jacob Blake is a manifestation/evidence of systemic racism. How? I think you're begging the question. You have to assume systemic racism exists in order to consider Jacob Blake's shooting evidence of same.

If system racism is actually systemic, then its existence should be easy to verify.

Wait... You actually think that the belief in systemic racism has emerged out of these recent incidents with the police? You think people previously didn't know about it? Really? Wtf?

Do you think racialized people were all just getting along without any awareness of systemic racism and then a few incidents with police caused this notion to blow up and spread through the media?

I mean, "you have to assume systemic racism exists"? Read history. Listen to people who experience it. It's not an assumption. If you are finding yourself unable to verify it, you're either not trying very hard or you don't even understand what it is that people are actually discussing.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

Okay, the shooting of Jacob Blake is a manifestation/evidence of systemic racism. How? I think you're begging the question. You have to assume systemic racism exists in order to consider Jacob Blake's shooting evidence of same.

If system racism is actually systemic, then its existence should be easy to verify.

I can't believe I'm actually engaging this troll but someone has to shut this garbage down.

Institutional racism is real, and has been real for almost 150 years. Since the emancipation proclamation institutional racism has continued to evolve and become entrenched in the mechanisms of power. Whether they be political, economic, or social, institutional racism is real and continues to manifest itself across our society.

Jim Crow laws were the first foray into institutional racism. Yes, racism was codified into law. Grandfather clauses were also mechanisms that allowed racist ideals and laws to exist, even after those racist ideals should have been rendered asunder by constitutional amendments and federal laws.

Voting is the best example of institutionalized racism. Poll taxes for decades were designed to keep African Americans from getting to the polls. Same with literacy testing. Both of these were directed at black voters. Voter ID laws have been designed to prevent black and brown people from being able to even register to vote, and residency rules have made it extremely difficult for those who are transient to cast a vote. The new rules where absolute data compliance (all characters matching on both ID and voter rolls) have negatively impacted black and brown people to a much higher degree than whites. I don't even have to talk about redistricting (gerrymandering).

Housing has long been subject to institutional racism. Segregated housing was a standard until the Fair Housing Act of 1968 made the practice illegal.
Guess who changed that and killed off many of the protections afforded to black and brown people to prevent such practices? Our sitting president is one of those people who refused to rent to people strictly based on the color of their skin and his executive order made it possible for that practice to return.

Broadband access is separated by socio-economic means. Certain carriers in the United States will not provide the same services to predominantly black and brown communities that they provide to white communities. This is indicative is service coverage maps and where lines of fiber access are available.

Health services for black and brown people are much worse than those for white people, where doctors and hospitals can refuse patients because of lack of health insurance. This issue affects those two visible minority groups more than any other because they are forced to work poor paying jobs that do not provide benefits or insurance. And what does the party of the old white guy (GOP) do? They kill off Obamacare that elevates those people to where they could afford insurance. No, no systemic racism there.

Crime and punishment is most obvious example. We don't have to talk about shootings either. We can just talking about policies such as stop-and-frisk. We can talk about harassment of drivers and pedestrians because of their skin color. Stanford did a study that found black people are 20 times more likely to be pulled over for a stop than their white counterparts. NOT a coincidence.

This are just easy examples off the top of my head. I won't even go into issues like the military, immigration, access to education, the drug trade and negative outcomes of the drug culture (with the exception of opiods, which is still systemic but in the other direction), and stereotypes in media. The list is very long and you have to be ignorant to ignore the long history of racism in the United States and how social constructs have been established in favor of one group (whites) and to hold back minorities.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

Okay, the shooting of Jacob Blake is a manifestation/evidence of systemic racism. How? I think you're begging the question. You have to assume systemic racism exists in order to consider Jacob Blake's shooting evidence of same.

If system racism is actually systemic, then its existence should be easy to verify.

US average income black or hispanic 40,000 a year, white 62,000

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Wait... You actually think that the belief in systemic racism has emerged out of these recent incidents with the police? You think people previously didn't know about it? Really? Wtf?

Do you think racialized people were all just getting along without any awareness of systemic racism and then a few incidents with police caused this notion to blow up and spread through the media?

I mean, "you have to assume systemic racism exists"? Read history. Listen to people who experience it. It's not an assumption. If you are finding yourself unable to verify it, you're either not trying very hard or you don't even understand what it is that people are actually discussing.

People are certainly using these incidents to validate their belief in systemic racism yes. But the only way to see this as a validation of systemic racism is if you make the assumption that systemic racism is an issue.

And of course racism exists. But racism and systemic racism are distinct concepts.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Rex is right...........this is madness.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1300570807253508102

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

But the only way to see this as a validation of systemic racism is if you make the assumption that systemic racism is an issue.

You're argument is that systemic racism isn't an issue?

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by New Era

I can't believe I'm actually engaging this troll but someone has to shut this garbage down.

Institutional racism is real, and has been real for almost 150 years. Since the emancipation proclamation institutional racism has continued to evolve and become entrenched in the mechanisms of power. Whether they be political, economic, or social, institutional racism is real and continues to manifest itself across our society.

Jim Crow laws were the first foray into institutional racism. Yes, racism was codified into law. Grandfather clauses were also mechanisms that allowed racist ideals and laws to exist, even after those racist ideals should have been rendered asunder by constitutional amendments and federal laws.

Voting is the best example of institutionalized racism. Poll taxes for decades were designed to keep African Americans from getting to the polls. Same with literacy testing. Both of these were directed at black voters. Voter ID laws have been designed to prevent black and brown people from being able to even register to vote, and residency rules have made it extremely difficult for those who are transient to cast a vote. The new rules where absolute data compliance (all characters matching on both ID and voter rolls) have negatively impacted black and brown people to a much higher degree than whites. I don't even have to talk about redistricting (gerrymandering).

Housing has long been subject to institutional racism. Segregated housing was a standard until the Fair Housing Act of 1968 made the practice illegal.
Guess who changed that and killed off many of the protections afforded to black and brown people to prevent such practices? Our sitting president is one of those people who refused to rent to people strictly based on the color of their skin and his executive order made it possible for that practice to return.

Broadband access is separated by socio-economic means. Certain carriers in the United States will not provide the same services to predominantly black and brown communities that they provide to white communities. This is indicative is service coverage maps and where lines of fiber access are available.

Health services for black and brown people are much worse than those for white people, where doctors and hospitals can refuse patients because of lack of health insurance. This issue affects those two visible minority groups more than any other because they are forced to work poor paying jobs that do not provide benefits or insurance. And what does the party of the old white guy (GOP) do? They kill off Obamacare that elevates those people to where they could afford insurance. No, no systemic racism there.

Crime and punishment is most obvious example. We don't have to talk about shootings either. We can just talking about policies such as stop-and-frisk. We can talk about harassment of drivers and pedestrians because of their skin color. Stanford did a study that found black people are 20 times more likely to be pulled over for a stop than their white counterparts. NOT a coincidence.

This are just easy examples off the top of my head. I won't even go into issues like the military, immigration, access to education, the drug trade and negative outcomes of the drug culture (with the exception of opiods, which is still systemic but in the other direction), and stereotypes in media. The list is very long and you have to be ignorant to ignore the long history of racism in the United States and how social constructs have been established in favor of one group (whites) and to hold back minorities.

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

US average income black or hispanic 40,000 a year, white 62,000

Both of these arguments for contemporary institutional racism are based on outcomes. History is obviously replete with examples of institutional racism. But I would be interested in some specific examples of an institution with explicitly racist policies (which target POC) right now. The closest we probably have are things like drug laws related to school proximity, etc. Those disproportionately impact black communities, and I would support them being modified or eliminated as appropriate. I'm open to a discussion about whether these were, or are currently, just simply suffering from the law of unintended consequences.

Simply relying on outcomes like wealth gap, number of people shot/killed by police, education, etc, would be a superficial analysis. I'm sure @CorsiHockeyLeague would caution against using such data in a way that would resemble goal-seeking. I certainly agree that they exist, although I am not a fellow traveler with BLM or most in this thread about the cause being as simple as system racism. This is what Coleman Hughes calls the "disparity fallacy". (https://quillette.com/2018/05/14/the-racism-treadmill/)

There is a robust debate, if people choose to listen, about whether the different outcomes are a result of conscious or subconscious oppressive white racism, or cultural aspects that are limiting within the black community. Glenn Loury speaks to it being a "problematic pattern." (https://media4.manhattan-institute.o.../R-0519-GL.pdf). Barrack Obama takes a more direct approach saying that the notion of "acting white has to go". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7jepUNPBog Poor Barack took some heat for that one, and still does.

Some would say that well intentioned Democrat policies related to the war on poverty were ultimately failures and counter-productive due unintended consequences. John McWhorter is a good example https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-great-society

I am not certain of the exact mix that is causing black people in the US to suffer from unequal outcomes. I think it is our mission to cure that situation - but it's complex.

My point is that systemic racism has gone from being a claim that requires validation to being an unassailable first principle.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

People are certainly using these incidents to validate their belief in systemic racism yes. But the only way to see this as a validation of systemic racism is if you make the assumption that systemic racism is an issue.

And of course racism exists. But racism and systemic racism are distinct concepts.

Well, you're certainly establishing yourself as a total ignoramus when it comes to this conversation. Your posts can basically be summarily dismissed at this point.

And it's not the job of anyone in here to prove to you that the sky is blue or water is wet. It's not like systemic racism is a tightly guarded secret hidden away in locked up tomes. You can learn everything needed not to be an ignoramus with google and the will to change.

Good luck with that.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

Simply relying on outcomes like wealth gap, number of people shot/killed by police, education, etc, would be a superficial analysis. I'm sure @CorsiHockeyLeague would caution against using such data in a way that would resemble goal-seeking. I certainly agree that they exist, although I am not a fellow traveler with BLM or most in this thread about the cause being as simple as system racism. This is what Coleman Hughes calls the "disparity fallacy". (https://quillette.com/2018/05/14/the-racism-treadmill/)

There is a robust debate, if people choose to listen, about whether the different outcomes are a result of conscious or subconscious oppressive white racism, or cultural aspects that are limiting within the black community. Glenn Loury speaks to it being a "problematic pattern." (https://media4.manhattan-institute.o.../R-0519-GL.pdf). Barrack Obama takes a more direct approach saying that the notion of "acting white has to go". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7jepUNPBog Poor Barack took some heat for that one, and still does.

I am not certain of the exact mix that is causing black people in the US to suffer from unequal outcomes. I think it is our mission to cure that situation - but it's complex.

My point is that systemic racism has gone from being a claim that requires validation to being an unassailable first principle.

It’s sounds like you are acknowledging systemic racism but just don’t want to call it that.

If you have a magic box and you put people in line for the magic box and the people are substantially the same aside from skin colour going in and on the other side of the box the outcomes are sorted by skin colour you have a systemically racist box.

There are likely a lot of factors that go into making that box Systemically racist. Some might not be controllable by the people in power. I think you are limiting systemic racism to power structures created by white people to disenfranchise black people as opposed to the more general systems in society which Negatively affect POCs to a greater degree then Whites.

Both are examples of systemic racism.

[OMG!WTF!]

I do not believe very much of what this guy writes in this article...


https://quillette.com/2018/05/14/the-racism-treadmill/


Seems like an awful lot of nonsense.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

Both of these arguments for contemporary institutional racism are based on outcomes. History is obviously replete with examples of institutional racism. But I would be interested in some specific examples of an institution with explicitly racist policies (which target POC) right now. The closest we probably have are things like drug laws related to school proximity, etc. Those disproportionately impact black communities, and I would support them being modified or eliminated as appropriate. I'm open to a discussion about whether these were, or are currently, just simply suffering from the law of unintended consequences.

Simply relying on outcomes like wealth gap, number of people shot/killed by police, education, etc, would be a superficial analysis. I'm sure @CorsiHockeyLeague would caution against using such data in a way that would resemble goal-seeking. I certainly agree that they exist, although I am not a fellow traveler with BLM or most in this thread about the cause being as simple as system racism. This is what Coleman Hughes calls the "disparity fallacy". (https://quillette.com/2018/05/14/the-racism-treadmill/)

There is a robust debate, if people choose to listen, about whether the different outcomes are a result of conscious or subconscious oppressive white racism, or cultural aspects that are limiting within the black community. Glenn Loury speaks to it being a "problematic pattern." (https://media4.manhattan-institute.o.../R-0519-GL.pdf). Barrack Obama takes a more direct approach saying that the notion of "acting white has to go". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7jepUNPBog Poor Barack took some heat for that one, and still does.

Some would say that well intentioned Democrat policies related to the war on poverty were ultimately failures and counter-productive due unintended consequences. John McWhorter is a good example https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-great-society

I am not certain of the exact mix that is causing black people in the US to suffer from unequal outcomes. I think it is our mission to cure that situation - but it's complex.

My point is that systemic racism has gone from being a claim that requires validation to being an unassailable first principle.

if Black or hispanic people in the US are paid less, are given a worse education, shot more often by the police, have a worse life expectancy worse access to health or post secondry education worse access to housing that is 'systemic racism' it matters not why, nothing would make that 'not systemic racism' as the system, for what ever reason is treating blacks and hispanics worse than white people, that is the literal definition of systemic racism.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

= I'm sure @CorsiHockeyLeague would caution against using such data in a way that would resemble goal-seeking.

First of all, this isn't twitter; you don't have to @ me. Second, whoa whoa whoa, don't drag me into this. I ain't swimming against a current this strong.

I do think the Loury and Hughes articles that you posted made some good points and were worth reading... and... I'll just leave it at that.

[FlamesAddiction]

If you believe racism exists, and you believe classism exists, then systemic racism existing is a given. Systemic racism is on a very basic level, classism X racism, and systemic classism has always been around in pretty much every human society.

Systemic racism doesn't need to be in the form of an obvious or active policy, it can also be displayed through attitudes, biases (and resulting behaviors) that form in people through media portrayal.

[PepsiFree]

Have to love that when it comes to debating whether systemic racism exists, BoLevi can fire out links like he's delivering newspapers from the passenger side of his friend's car (while talking about how all the ways it is systemic, but refusing to call it systemic, but anyway).

Meanwhile, ask him to backup his reasoning for labelling the left as seeking authoritarian goals through the same methods fascists use: "I seen it."

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...postcount=2965

I think you need to learn the difference between sufficient, and necessary.
All fascists are authoritarian, does not mean everyone who is acting in what you think is an authoritarian manner are acting like fascists.

You said:

All fascists are authoritarian, but not all authoritarians are fascists.

So let’s grant that the people on that video are acting as authoritarians. By your logic that means they look like fascists.

Also by your logic that woman was acting like a fascist. After all, “ All fascists eat, but not all who eat are fascists.”

When I said she looks like a fascists, I meant it - she was behaving as fascists often do.

[getbak]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1300620978305736704

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

Both of these arguments for contemporary institutional racism are based on outcomes.

No, they are based on behaviors clearly displayed by society and the institutions at the core of that society.

My point is that systemic racism has gone from being a claim that requires validation to being an unassailable first principle.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

if Black or hispanic people in the US are paid less, are given a worse education, shot more often by the police, have a worse life expectancy worse access to health or post secondry education worse access to housing that is 'systemic racism' it matters not why, nothing would make that 'not systemic racism' as the system, for what ever reason is treating blacks and hispanics worse than white people, that is the literal definition of systemic racism.

No, no, no, no, no....... you don't get it.

Those are "outcomes," not examples or evidence of systemic racism. Don't you know how the game is played?

[KootenayFlamesFan]

What in the hell is he talking about?

https://twitter.com/user/status/1300620978305736704

edit: ooops, already posted by getbak.