This is pretty simple, you're very sure the loss was Hillarys fault, so what are some key things she should have done different?
And not campaigning in Wisconsin or wherever is not an answer.
Seriously, are you trolling?
I gave you a brief account of my opinion and suggested a book you might read, which you immediately dismissed as nothing new to you. I have no responsibility to provide a campaign strategy that could have won Hillary the election.
Your responses have been badgering and accusatory but you won't answer one simple question I'm asking you. That's not engaging in a conversation in good faith. I didn't come in here for a fight and I have no interest in being interrogated by some random guy.
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It certainly seems like Spicy has reached the end of the line (ideally Bannon too, Reince...who cares?). Looking forward to whatever book deal he gets, because if Trump doesn't realize there's going to be seven figure book deals for all his former inner circle staff waiting for when they get canned, he doesn't realize the appetite people have for this trainwreck
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President Trump is reportedly weighing a shake-up in his administration.
The president is considering a "huge reboot" that could include chief of staff Reince Priebus, chief strategist Stephen Bannon and press secretary Sean Spicer, Axios reported early Sunday, citing White House sources.
The move comes at the urging of longtime friends and outside advisers, according to the news outlet.
"He's frustrated, and angry at everyone," an unidentified confidant told Axios. "The advice he's getting is to go big — that he has nothing to lose," the confidant added. "The question now is how big and how bold. I'm not sure he knows the answer to that yet."
Sources also said Trump feels he is not being well-served by some members of his Cabinet.
Six West Wing officials also told The New York Times, meanwhile, the president is considering the most far-reaching shake-up of his first term after being dissatisfied with several top aides, especially Spicer.
It certainly seems like Spicy has reached the end of the line (ideally Bannon too, Reince...who cares?). Looking forward to whatever book deal he gets, because if Trump doesn't realize there's going to be seven figure book deals for all his former inner circle staff waiting for when they get canned, he doesn't realize the appetite people have for this trainwreck
You're not saying anything I haven't heard a million times, mostly from republicans.
So, what should she have done? This is what I'm interested in, it's easy to blame Hillary, but what should she have done? Promise coal jobs? Promise to repeal Obamacare, but keep ACA?
What?
Clinton stopped campaigning. Whether it was fatigue or overconfidence, she stopped getting out and showing the people in those important states that they were front and center, even if they weren't. Trump took the rust belt states because he spoke to them and told them what the wanted to hear. He made a connection with their values and because of that the voters trusted him. Clinton did not of that. If anything, she never showed America where her values were. The only thing people were certain about was he quest for power. Clinton needed to show she was human and that she understood the plight of the little guy. She failed miserably in that regard. She had a fantastic platform and was very strong on the bookish policy stuff, but as far as making connections with hearts and minds, she was weak as hell. To make matters worse, her running mate was even worse.
Interestingly, but not surprisingly, there is no mandate to determine if fraud occurred, just to identify laws that increase or decrease voter confidence. Taking action must mean it's a real problem!
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Sec. 3. Mission. The Commission shall, consistent with applicable law, study the registration and voting processes used in Federal elections. The Commission shall be solely advisory and shall submit a report to the President that identifies the following:
(a) those laws, rules, policies, activities, strategies, and practices that enhance the American people's confidence in the integrity of the voting processes used in Federal elections;
(b) those laws, rules, policies, activities, strategies, and practices that undermine the American people's confidence in the integrity of the voting processes used in Federal elections; and
(c) those vulnerabilities in voting systems and practices used for Federal elections that could lead to improper voter registrations and improper voting, including fraudulent voter registrations and fraudulent voting.
Its a bit funny that on the one hand people argue Bernie had no chance versus Hillary because of of Democratic power brokers backing her, but on the other side, NO ONE of the GOP party did anything to support Trump? In fact, i've never seen a candidate receive less backing and more outright vitriol and ridicule as Trump received from the GOP Party establishment.
Trump had his celebrity star power. The other republicans knew he would be a public favourite so every other potential candidate did everything they could early on to try and stop him, it obviously wasn't enough.
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Clinton was held in poor standing with the GOP base no question, but I haven't seen anything that would make me feel that Bernie, who was even further left of Clinton's agenda, would have beaten Trump in a general election...
The main difference I see between these two in this regard is the poor standing Clinton had with the GOP, Bernie was further left, but I don't think voters didn't vote for Clinton because of her platform, they didn't vote for her simply because she was Hilary Clinton. I'm sure there were people who would have had a similar stance with sanders, but I don't think it would have been anywhere near as many.
Also, the longer Sanders is around to communicate his message, the more popular he becomes across demographics, despite the fact that many of his ardent fans expressed outrage and a sense of betrayal when he endorsed Hillary. As mentioned earlier, according to an April poll he is the most liked political figure in the U.S. now. The reason the Democratic party involves him in so many events is that he's by far the most popular figure they have.
Here some of the data from that poll:
We'll never know what would have happened. It's all speculation. We can only say what did happen, and not even all of that is entirely transparent.
I appreciate what you are saying and I agree that the exercise of projecting 'What ifs" will never result in agreement as there is no way of actually proving either stance...
the one thing i would add though, is that using polling from April 2017 on Bernie's current popularity and correlating that back to November 2016 as a way of providing some foundation that Bernie would be backed by moderate GOP and/or those who weren't supportive of Trump is a bit of a stretch....
WRT to democratic support, seems to be mainly a case of buyer's remorse to me... the Democratic delegates had every chance to choose Bernie as their nominee, just as the GOP did with Trump, despite the fact Trump had zero backing from the GOP establishment... I would argue Bernie had more support and certainly respect, from the Democratic establishment than what Trump received from the GOP
Lack of GOP Establishment support did not stop Trump from gaining the party's nomination because his message resonated with the broader base... Bernie's did not - he wasn't the nominee selected the Democratic Establishment, nor was he selected by their base.
Last edited by oldschoolcalgary; 05-14-2017 at 11:33 AM.
The main difference I see between these two in this regard is the poor standing Clinton had with the GOP, Bernie was further left, but I don't think voters didn't vote for Clinton because of her platform, they didn't vote for her simply because she was Hilary Clinton. I'm sure there were people who would have had a similar stance with sanders, but I don't think it would have been anywhere near as many.
While there was definitely hatred that drove some of the voters, once hate is removed from the equation, you are left with issues and values.
There have been plenty of articles written about voters voting against their own economic self interests in favor of values....Its the values that the GOP use to wedge in their economic platform
honestly, does anyone see a GOP member supporting things like:
-IT'S TIME TO MAKE COLLEGE TUITION FREE AND DEBT FREE
-COMBATING CLIMATE CHANGE TO SAVE THE PLANET
-A FAIR AND HUMANE IMMIGRATION POLICY
-RACIAL JUSTICE
-FIGHTING FOR LGBT EQUALITY
-EMPOWERING TRIBAL NATIONS
-MEDICARE FOR ALL
-STRENGTHEN AND EXPAND SOCIAL SECURITY
-SUPPORTING HISTORICALLY BLACK COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES
-WAR AND PEACE
-WAR SHOULD BE THE LAST OPTION: WHY I SUPPORT THE IRAN DEAL
you take hate for Hillary out of the equation, and I still see a platform that is antithetical to many tenants of conservative philosophy. And the hatred of the left in general does exist...with or without the Clintons
Last edited by oldschoolcalgary; 05-14-2017 at 11:47 AM.
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Just watched SNL. I think it will most certainly set off a Trump twitter storm...
Yup, they killed it last night with the Trump/Spicer skits. I'm shocked we haven't seen a Twitter tirade from him yet. I wonder how long he can hold out before exploding.
A big part of Trumps base is purely appeal to emotion voters, and the populist movement across the spectrum clearly supported 2 candidates, Trump and Sanders, many of Trumps diehard supporters cheered loudly when he said over and over he is no war hawk like crooked Hillary..
Logic tells you that Sanders shouldn't get many votes from Republicans, but its far more about emotion and feeling like the whole system of government has left you behind and is not working to make your life any better.
Sanders tapped in to this, Trump tapped in to this, Hillary failed and lost because she fairly or unfairly was seen as the epitaph of the establishment. The Democratic establishment did everything they could to help her make this up, Bernie had to pretty much do all that he did without the media covering him like they did Hillary, and of course the DNC which like most of the establishment democrat system felt she was next in line, had earned this, etc..
If you really think he wouldn't have pulled a lot of independent and even some Republicans to defeat Trump, check out this room full of Republican voters in a red area cheer on many of the things you just pointed out they would never vote for...
We are here in this thread, high information or at least information voters, you have to understand that in the US a large % of the Trump voter is low information, emotion based.
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I mean he goes still after the election, straight to these areas which are economically desperate, who voted trump, and turns them all in to Bernie fans by the end. Die hard republicans will not vote for him, but clearly with the key states Hillary lost, many who voted for Obama now voted for Trump, because they are fed up with the system.
You don't think they would if they had voted Obama in the past given Sanders a vote over Trump, as a clear outsider, champion of the working class?
Anyways another excellent town hall where you can see how well he plays to these crowds and why I think he would have defeated Trump, but likely dominated him.
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Yup, they killed it last night with the Trump/Spicer skits. I'm shocked we haven't seen a Twitter tirade from him yet. I wonder how long he can hold out before exploding.
He may have literally exploded watching those, which could explain why we've heard nothing.
I mean he goes still after the election, straight to these areas which are economically desperate, who voted trump, and turns them all in to Bernie fans by the end. Die hard republicans will not vote for him, but clearly with the key states Hillary lost, many who voted for Obama now voted for Trump, because they are fed up with the system.
You don't think they would if they had voted Obama in the past given Sanders a vote over Trump, as a clear outsider, champion of the working class?
Anyways another excellent town hall where you can see how well he plays to these crowds and why I think he would have defeated Trump, but likely dominated him.
At the end of the day, its all speculation.
the one thing that isn't speculation is that Hillary won the democratic nominees because she got more delegates...
Bernie's message was not compelling enough to even win his own party's nomination.
This isn't "my" argument - this is historical fact.
people are more than welcome to keep talking about alternative scenarios about how Bernie would have done if he was the nominee vs Trump... at the end of the day none of that matters...
so, i'll bow out of this particular line of discussion as it won't lead to any agreed upon consensus and is starting to become a circular argument...
edit: and in spite of all the talking, its not like Hillary did poorly - she won the popular vote! it came down to a poor decision to throw pie in the sky money into Texas and Georgia in the last days/week instead of circling back to additional campaigning in Wisconsin/Michigan/Pennsylvania, where she lost the electoral college by 144K votes.
Last edited by oldschoolcalgary; 05-14-2017 at 12:27 PM.
Yep we'll never know, but I am geniuinely curious if you believe Sanders vs Hillary was a level playing field in regards to media coverage, DNC support?
That is why I question the result, not because of any cheating, but there are certainly states which have a system in place which benefits Sanders to get delegates, but as a rule most states hold a system which favors traditional candidates, I'm sure Itse or others more tuned in to that primary system with the Democratic primaries favored Hillary vs a populist candidate.
But yeah this is a dead horse, I only discuss it when I think democratic friends in the US still blame Bernie or seem to deny that Hillary has any blame to take for that loss. Because if the DNC and Democrats don't genuinely learn from this loss we will have a very depressing 2018.
