House passes Senate health care bill

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Azure

Wow. Didn't see this coming.

From here.


So in other words, if I understand this wording correctly, there is a 'penalty' for not having insurance, but it is not subject to certain 'enforcement provisions.' Like the quote says, what the IRS usually does when you don't pay your taxes(show up at your door, take you to jail if you don't)....that isn't authorized to be done in order to collect this 'penalty.'

NOT having health insurance, or not complying with the mandate that everyone should have health insurance is not subject to criminal or civil penalties. In other words, if you don't have health insurance, you won't be fined or taken to jail because of it. And there is no interest charged on your failure to have health insurance.

Long story short, the IRS is not allowed to actually enforce the mandate by any means. No past due accrual, interest, no penalties, no liens or garnishments for failure to pay, and no civil or criminal liability. Without enforcement, and no exclusion of preexisting conditions allowed, what will happen?

Well, unless I'm completely stupid, given that there is absolutely nothing in place to keep people from not having health insurance till they actually get sick, along with the fact that insurance companies aren't allowed to turn away someone based on pre-existing conditions the system surely has to go bankrupt.

The health care bill explicitly states that insurance companies are NOT allowed to turn anyone away with pre-existing conditions, what is going to stop people from waiting till they're sick to get health insurance?

Assuming I'm not completely misreading ALL of this, who is the moron who came up with this bright idea? I might not like the health care bill, especially the individual mandate, but I also realize that if you're going to force insurance companies to take patients with pre-existing conditions, you have to force EVERYONE to have health insurance.

Now apparently ALL that is being thrown out.

WTF.

No idea if this is correct, but the first thing that came to my mind was possibly the ability to collect the whole past due amount from the estate on death.

[Azure]

Is that possible? I'm not sure how the tax code works down south, but I assume if they can't enforce collecting it while they're alive, why would they collect it when the guy dies?

I mean, if you don't pay your taxes....ever, and you die, does the IRS take their cut?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Azure

Is that possible? I'm not sure how the tax code works down south, but I assume if they can't enforce collecting it while they're alive, why would they collect it when the guy dies?

I mean, if you don't pay your taxes....ever, and you die, does the IRS take their cut?

I honestly don't know. I have a buddy who's a tax attorney, I'll try to remember to ask him if he knows much about it.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by Azure

Is that possible? I'm not sure how the tax code works down south, but I assume if they can't enforce collecting it while they're alive, why would they collect it when the guy dies?

I mean, if you don't pay your taxes....ever, and you die, does the IRS take their cut?

This is weird and makes no sense what so ever. I'm no expert on this by any means but am in the US as a tax accountant. I know that when you die you do have to file a tax return and a tax will be assessed based upon your total assets at the time of death. They may try to build any penalties into that return.

I could also see the IRS collecting on this by building it in your annual tax return and when it says you owe a certain amount of money it won't break out the portion that would be a penalty for not having health insurance. If anyone has overpaid on their taxes during the year it would likely reduce the refund paid to the person. I'm not sure if they would be allowed to do that or not.

The other thing they might try doing is sending out the penalty noticed and for people not educated as to how far they can go in collections they may just pay it.

There has to be a loophole in this somewhere because I can't see them being so stupid as to not allow some way to collect on it. I think most accountants down here are in the same boat right now and haven't given this much of a thought considering the filing deadline for taxes is coming up in 3 weeks time. After that I'm sure there will be a greater flow of information.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well, unless I'm completely stupid, given that there is absolutely nothing in place to keep people from not having health insurance till they actually get sick, along with the fact that insurance companies aren't allowed to turn away someone based on pre-existing conditions the system surely has to go bankrupt.

Bingo....

The Obama administration has yet to make a good financial decision....this should not come as a surprise.

I can just see it now....in a few years they will have to "bail out" the health care system, further putting them into debt and de-valuing the dollar.

[Azure]

If that happens, a few years from now....it would enable a complete government take over of health care.

[Methanolic]

It Pisses me off how much influence HollyWood has!!

.....Hugh Laurie shouldn't even be involved in this!!!.......

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

The Obama administration has yet to make a good financial decision....this should not come as a surprise.

If only Bush could've gotten a 3rd term, then things would be just peachy.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Gozer

If only Bush could've gotten a 3rd term, then things would be just peachy.

Things would be more peachy if Clinton had gotten a 3rd term and the same Republicans controlled Congress.

Obama ain't got nothing on Clinton.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Azure

Things would be more peachy if Clinton had gotten a 3rd term and the same Republicans controlled Congress.

Obama ain't got nothing on Clinton.

Actually, Clintons' administration began the process that allowed all these financial institutions to fail. They repealed the Glass-Steagall Act in 1999, which lifted banking restrictions and got all of this started.....

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source...sykk9GfvoOy7gQ

Quote;
"The Banking Act of 1933 was a law that established the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) in the United States and introduced banking reforms, some of which were designed to control speculation. It is most commonly known as the Glass–Steagall Act, after its legislative sponsors, Carter Glass and Henry B. Steagall.

The banking industry had been seeking the repeal of Glass–Steagall since at least the 1980s. In 1987 the Congressional Research Service prepared a report which explored the cases for and against preserving the Glass–Steagall act."

[Azure]

Actually, I don't really know the specific details, but from what I've read the problem started with Carter.

[Pastiche]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Bingo....

The Obama administration has yet to make a good financial decision....this should not come as a surprise.

I can just see it now....in a few years they will have to "bail out" the health care system, further putting them into debt and de-valuing the dollar.

Completely clueless. Geitner's bank rescue is regarded as one of the best episodes of public financial policy of this generation accounting for its aftermath.

[tussery]

Originally Posted by Azure

Actually, I don't really know the specific details, but from what I've read the problem started with Carter.

The bill was originally introduced by Carter, but the revisions to the bill were done during the Clinton administration. The revisions during the Clinton administration are the ones that can be linked to having more of a impact on the real estate crash.

[CaptainCrunch]

I was reading in the paper today that the Debt/GNP in the states has risen from 38% to about 60% in the last year and a half. The expectation is that this health plan will possibly push it to 100% which means that the American's will be in a 1-1 debt/gnp ratio.

In essence its not the U.S. will not pay the short term cash for this, the Chinese will driving the American's into a worse position when it comes to dealing with the Chinese.

While we might not see the total collapse of the American Empire, I believe we will see the withdrawl of America as a global superpower as they will not be able to afford as much international aid, military expenditures and the inability to live up to their international obligations.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Pastiche

Completely clueless. Geitner's bank rescue is regarded as one of the best episodes of public financial policy of this generation accounting for its aftermath.

lol.

first the government creates the problem, then they run in for the rescue.

seems like that is exactly what they're trying to do with this healthcare bill.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Azure

lol.

first the government creates the problem, then they run in for the rescue.

seems like that is exactly what they're trying to do with this healthcare bill.

Why the lol, previous governments creates problems and the new government tries to correct them. That's how democracy works. What did Churchill say about democracy, oh yeah,

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

[Azure]

Its 10x worse when people actually trust their government to solve or fix something and don't do their duty as citizens to vote out those representatives that aren't doing their job.

Republican, Democrat....go back and forth since FDR. Were they really radically that different?

You have people in Congress who have been there forever. They're more at fault for this mess than Obama ever is or WILL be. Hell, some of those guys were in there before Bush got elected. Or Clinton. Or Bush 1.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Its 10x worse when people actually trust their government to solve or fix something and don't do their duty as citizens to vote out those representatives that aren't doing their job.

Republican, Democrat....go back and forth since FDR. Were they really radically that different?

You have people in Congress who have been there forever. They're more at fault for this mess than Obama ever is or WILL be. Hell, some of those guys were in there before Bush got elected. Or Clinton. Or Bush 1.

Yes, and all these elected representatives rely on Wall Street and Medical conglomerates for campaign contributions. It's a wonder anything gets done to curtail these interests.

[OilersBaby]

i havent gone through the pages and pages of this thread but living in the USA, I have my opinion. As an educated, married person, this SUCKS. Why should I have to pay for everyone else's healthcare? Its mine and my husbands tax dollars that will have to support people who dont have the motivation or desire to work.

Sorry to be selfish, but if I wanted universal healthcare, I would have stayed in Canada. Here, the more you work and the more you make, the more you pay tax to support those who dont. Whats the point of working our butts off? I might as well just make an average household income and let the wealthy take care of me. By the way, Im not rich. I live in California and the amount we make is defined as rich by a national standard but by crazy california standards, we can barely pay our mortgage.

Thats my rant.

[Ryan Coke]

Every argument I see against change, I just keep thinking of the chart on the first couple of pages.

It is the most expensive (per capita) health care system in the world, with middle of the pack average lifespan. The US system is bad, it needs to be changed. But people fear change, it is almost as certain as death and taxes.