Board to decide bus beheader's fate

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by flameswin

I'm not trying to come off as a bleeding heart, but I'll trust whatever the professionals decide.

I must have missed the part where they 100% guaranteed Li is reformed and will never, ever relapse. I feel if a professional believes he really feels that the person is reformed he/she should agree to have him as his neighbor for a certain amount of time. I'm willing to bet his/her professional opinion may change if it involves encounters with his own family.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

He's not being released to live on his own as a regular member of society. He is still required to stay at the mental health facility under supervision by professionals who ensure he keeps taking his medication. Your hypothetical scenario of Li choosing to quit his medication isn't a possible reality.

It's not my hypothetical scenario. Another poster posted his experience of a family member that did just that thing.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by pylon

Would any one of you, stand in front of Tim McLeans mother, and tell them Vincent Li is a good man?

I promised myself I would stay out these discussions but I had to respond to the above.

I would try and tell her that schziphrenia killed her son and not Li and that some of her fears are based on her own ignorance. In reality I highly doubt I'd be allowed to finish as she would be yelling and screaming at me to get the #### out of her house!!!

My sense is that she doesn't give a rats behind about rehabilitation and if she truely got her way she'd have him executed. You took my sons life and you should have yours taken! Her anger is justifiable but at the same time it's like a cancer that is slowly eating away at her on the inside. At some point she has to deal with anger before it kills her and find a way to move on from what's happen. Now that doesn't mean she has to forget, just find a proper balance where it's not consuming you.

[CaramonLS]

Is someone planning on force feeding Li pills for the rest of his life? Daily monitoring?

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by pylon

"Elite interwebz PHD understanding"

Thanked your post for this part. People in this thread acting like they are experts on schizophrenia because they had a friend in high school that had it just make me shake my head. I'm not saying that Li should be punished, but I don't understand how it's worth the risk letting him out unsupervised. Being able to say that you are more compassionate and progressive than most people might wear pretty thin if you suddenly found yourself sitting next to this man during one of his unsupervised day trips...

[DOOM]

This guy should stay in a facility for the rest of his life.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by habernac

he should never be allowed out unescorted. My great uncle was schizophrenic. He was never stable, he was on meds for years but quit because he didn't like the way they made him feel. There's no guarantee that this man will stay on them forever, either.

As long as Li is under the care of a doctor and the place he is living he won't get that choice to come off his meds. If he resists and says no then I suspect his unescorted trips would be revolked and he would go back to living in that facility 24/7.

If he should ever get a full release then I would start to worry and I hope to God it never comes to that.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

He's not being released to live on his own as a regular member of society. He is still required to stay at the mental health facility under supervision by professionals who ensure he keeps taking his medication. Your hypothetical scenario of Li choosing to quit his medication isn't a possible reality.

If he's unescorted, he could absolutely wander away and quit his meds.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I must have missed the part where they 100% guaranteed Li is reformed and will never, ever relapse. I feel if a professional believes he really feels that the person is reformed he/she should agree to have him as his neighbor for a certain amount of time. I'm willing to bet his/her professional opinion may change if it involves encounters with his own family.

This is a pretty dumb statement. Can you ever guarantee 100% that any single person will never harm someone?

[Coys1882]

Every single day violent offenders, who are not mentally ill, are released into society after serving their 'time out'

Some are murderers and sexual predators - these guys don't even have the excuse of being schizophrenic - most of which receive no treatment while in jail. I find that to be more alarming than this guy to be honest.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Is someone planning on force feeding Li pills for the rest of his life? Daily monitoring?

It looks like that will be the case.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Scientists can't agree on global warming which at least has measurable trends yet we can count on doctors to be completely sure a schizophrenic cannibal will never, ever relapse? Sorry I don't buy that at all. It's a chronic issue and there's a difference between schizophrenics in that most do not injure or kill people. The ones that do should be treated differently.

Woof. Bad example. They can and HAVE agreed on global warming. Out of over 33,000 papers on the subject last year, only ONE discounted man made global warming.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by habernac

If he's unescorted, he could absolutely wander away and quit his meds.

He's being granted 30 minutes of unescorted time. What do you suppose the mental health facility will do if he hasn't returned by the time he's due back? Just sit on their thumbs and pretend nothing happened?

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

He's being granted 30 minutes of unescorted time. What do you suppose the mental health facility will do if he hasn't returned by the time he's due back? Just sit on their thumbs and pretend nothing happened?

Ok, I did not know that. I thought it was day trips. I know I'm not the only one who made that mistake, I believe some news outlets reported it that way.

30 mins I'm ok with.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by fotze

I'm wondering if he really is better on the new pills, treatment how can he function? Wouldn't he wake up in the morning refreshed then it dawns on him what his body did on that bus. I wouldn't leave the house. I would be paralyzed.

Do they have some sort of risk matrix for these cases. I am trying to draw comparisons to things I know. I do risk analysis all the time on pipelines. There is always discretion even amongst experts.

You always have a likelihood of occurrence and then a consequence of occurrence. Obviously the consequence here is catastrophic, no one could argue that. The likelihood is where people might not agree now. I assume the professionals believe the likelihood is zero.

Perhaps they have said it is greater than zero but do other things to mitigate the risk. Hoping they have blood tests to ensure the drug is being taken, frequent check-ups. Maybe it is not possible to go full psychosis in a 48 hour period or something.

Maybe they could communicate the process to arrive at the decision as well as how they mitigate the risk. Might put some people at some ease. I know it would help me wrap my head around it.

Thats interesting, thats a really good point.

Originally Posted by MarchHare

He's being granted 30 minutes of unescorted time. What do you suppose the mental health facility will do if he hasn't returned by the time he's due back? Just sit on their thumbs and pretend nothing happened?

I can tell you what they wont be doing, and thats waiting at the nearest bus-stop.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by fotze

I assume the goal is to increase this time though?

I would assume so. The experts probably know better than I. If it's a gradual thing, and there is still supervision, work with him, etc., I think I would be behind that. But they should obviously never NEVER get to a point where he doesn't have to 'check in' or be tested for regression, illness etc. I'm not explaining it well but I think you know what I mean.

It's a very tough situation. I have no problem with the people that think he should be institutionalized for his entire life. It's a natural reaction, and it is obviously the safest plan. I understand that, and to be completely honest, it's a fine position on a very grey scale in my opinion. Maybe it's not exactly 'fair' but nothing about this is fair. With what we know and the technology and the medicine we have now, we probably can't ever feel 100% safe about treating this or curing this.

I do get a little sad about the comments from the people who want to see him punished though.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by fotze

Just curious. Does anyone fully recover from this type of mental illness. How does one live with knowing they did this? I couldn't.

What does his family think? What is his life like? It has to be awful.

Do all the nephews rejoice when Uncle Vince is coming over for Christmas?

I just hope that he never kills anyone again, but if he does, hopefully it is himself? He was dealt a terrible brain card in life obviously.

I'm guessing they don't let him carve the turkey.

[Zevo]

I'm sure he'd have some cutting edge jokes. People would probably laugh their heads off.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

Every single day violent offenders, who are not mentally ill, are released into society after serving their 'time out'

Some are murderers and sexual predators - these guys don't even have the excuse of being schizophrenic - most of which receive no treatment while in jail. I find that to be more alarming than this guy to be honest.

I think you are missing the point here at it's apples to oranges. There is a difference between what has been deemed a normal person that did a bad thing and a person with a brain disorder doing a bad thing. I think we can all agree a person with a healthy mind can feel regret, remorse, and can be reformed. Someone that lost control once in their life may be able to control themselves going forward for the rest of their lives. Someone that has no control over themselves is simply that. Out of control and dependent on being controlled externally. Li is a sick man that is being held together by medication. Apples to oranges.

Honestly would you be more scared of being locked up in a cage with a man that 10 years ago killed his wife in a fit of anger after she cheated on him and has been released after doing his time or a guy like Li that has no concept of what and why he did what he did because he's sick and is still undergoing treatment for the rest of his life? I know who I would take my chances with 100/100 times and I think you know as well.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think you are missing the point here at it's apples to oranges. There is a difference between what has been deemed a normal person that did a bad thing and a person with a brain disorder doing a bad thing. I think we can all agree a person with a healthy mind can feel regret, remorse, and can be reformed. Someone that lost control once in their life may be able to control themselves going forward for the rest of their lives. Someone that has no control over themselves is simply that. Li is a sick man that is being held together by medication. Apples to oranges.

From which university did you receive your doctorate degree in psychiatry and/or neuroscience? How many years of professional experience do you have working with mental health patients?