Worst team in the league - Are we "OK" with it?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Ba'alzamon

The Sharks added Jeff Skinner, Dmitry Orlov, John Klingberg, Nick Leddy, and Alex Nedeljkovic. If the Flames did all that people would be incessantly complaining about the Flames always aiming for the "mushy middle"

You know, more than they already do.

Skinner, Leddy, Klingberg, and Nedeljkovic are all on one-year pump and dump contracts. Orlov is on a two-year, but likely the same thing at least for after this season. They also acquired Price's dead cap. These weren't moves to try and get them in the mushy middle, they were moves to try and get the additional assets to rebuild with and to weaponize their cap space. Unless all those guys happen to have career years, they are still in tank mode.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Skinner, Leddy, Klingberg, and Nedeljkovic are all on one-year pump and dump contracts. Orlov is on a two-year, but likely the same thing at least for after this season. They also acquired Price's dead cap. These weren't moves to try and get them in the mushy middle, they were moves to try and get the additional assets to rebuild with and to weaponize their cap space. Unless all those guys happen to have career years, they are still in tank mode.

Their owner did come out and state they do not want to be drafting Gavin McKenna this year so with those public comments the Sharks are now on a path where the expectation is they get better.

[prizefighterinferno]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

If you look at a team like Chicago, they already had guys like Bolland, Byfuglien, Brouwer, Keith, Seabrook and quite a few others before they dropped in Toews and Kane.

Lots of teams that successfully rebuild have a group of 2nd/3rd line guys already playing in the system that work well then add the final touches.

The Flames currently have a group of guys like that (Coronato, Gridin, Honzek etc) that look to be middle of the lineup guys when the Flames are good.

Just need to wait to get the stars they need to flesh out the roster.

Only way to reliably do that, is to not play good hockey. You can fluke out with a Fleury or Gaudreau every once in a while. You can't rely on that happening though.

Agree with everything here except Gridin being a middle of the lineup guy. I think he'll be a bonafide top line winger with his speed/sense/shot/size combo. Need another legit C to go with Reschny, as I think Potter is more likely to be a second line winger, but if you're drafting top 3-5 this year I think you are certainly capable of grabbing another game-breaker regardless of position (and they need it all).

[Regorium]

I've been okay with it for a long time.

The time to do it was trading away Huberdeau and Weegar for more picks when they came rather than extending them. Now it's really awkward to do it because Huberdeau likely keeps the team above last place.

It's fine to be bad for 3-4 years. It's the only way if your end goal is winning the cup.

[MissTeeks]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Their owner did come out and state they do not want to be drafting Gavin McKenna this year so with those public comments the Sharks are now on a path where the expectation is they get better.

The coach offered up one of his kids for a win on the weekend!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1979778914034872752

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by prizefighterinferno

Agree with everything here except Gridin being a middle of the lineup guy. I think he'll be a bonafide top line winger with his speed/sense/shot/size combo. Need another legit C to go with Reschny, as I think Potter is more likely to be a second line winger, but if you're drafting top 3-5 this year I think you are certainly capable of grabbing another game-breaker regardless of position (and they need it all).

Not arguing with you, but until one or more of them actually do it, they should stay in the pile of good 2nd/3rd line guys. Also helps when some like that turn out to be way more than what was expected.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by MissTeeks

The coach offered up one of his kids for a win on the weekend!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1979778914034872752

It could just be a shot across the bow to his kids. Straighten up or one of them is on their way out.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

First, I recommend that you simply take a step back, and look at the moves made. If this isn't practically a tear-down rebuild, I don't know what is. If you are in doubt, take a look at other organizations that have undergone tear down rebuilds. Tell me how many vets were traded out. I think if you were to look around at other rebuilds, it would skew your opinion of what Conroy is doing.


As for 'announcing the rebuild' - when should he have announced it? So the Flames under Feaster announced it. There wasn't any issue there. They had just traded out the Captain and face of the franchise (as well as Bouwmeester) to kickstart that rebuild. Now take a look at how many more vets have been traded out as compared to that team, for reference. So why didn't Conroy simply announce the rebuild?


Should he have announced the rebuild when players were asking for trades publicly? Zadorov and Toffoli both did. Gaudreau had left the season before as a UFA. Tkachuk demanded out. Players were demanding exorbitant sums to re-sign. Conroy traded them all out. The amount of vets for futures was unprecedented, and yet many on this board thought "Flames are competing" simply because a rebuild was not announced.


There was no good time. The Calgary Flames name was being dragged through the mud. Conroy couldn't go public and say: "We are rebuilding because nobody wants to play in Calgary." Then the next season, this team exceeds expectations - at the deadline, he doesn't add anyone. He could have traded some bodies out, but that would have caused animosity with the vets, and once again, risked having a 'nobody wants to play in Calgary." embarrassing scenario.


Unfortunately, a small market team like Calgary has to pay attention to its image - every team does, but it is even more important for a team like Calgary. Conroy has been going out of his way to show players and the league in general that Calgary is a 1st rate organization. He has asked Backlund to let him know how the Flames can do more - better lunches, more support, etc.. He went out of his way to pick up Frost and Farabee, which many players around the league noticed.


If you listen all along to what he has been saying, he is basically saying that the Flames are rebuilding without saying it. He has on many occasions said; "This will take some time", "The bulk of this team will be built through the draft", and only prioritizing young players. Not signing UFA vets. Not trading any futures for win-now players.


The Flames are 100% in a rebuild, not a retool. A retool last a season. Gadreau and Tkachuck out, Weegar and Huberdeau in = retool. Lindholm, Zadorov, Tanev, Toffoli, Mangiapane, Markstrom, and Hanifin all for futures - that's a rebuild, and as close to a complete tear-down, scorched earth, burn it to the ground as you can get in one season. I don't can't find a team that has traded-out more vets for futures within just over a season than Calgary has.


All that is missing is the announcement. If it comes, it will come this season at the trade deadline or in the off-season. However, Conroy is probably just loving the fact that even fans here in Calgary are bickering over what is really happening. Maybe he never announces it.

Yes Conroy was incredibly busy his first year do the incredibly high number of expiring contracts the Flames had. Since then:

• The Flames have made one move in almost 16 months, and that was trading a pick for a couple of players.
• Conroy admitted he was trying to make a big splash this summer to bring on more help.
• Dreger and others have said that Conroy is getting calls about guys like Kadri and weren't looking to move him.
• Conroy has outright said the Flames aren't rebuilding. So have the Flames media and NHL insiders. You think that is am image thing? That is a real stretch.

We are in the honeymoon period with Conroy. Most people are coming around to the idea we should be rebuilding. The theme of "we missed the playoffs by one point so don't need to rebuild" is being replaced with "we have secretly been rebuilding all along". But outside of Conroys busy first 12 months dealing with expiring contracts, there is very little evident of that.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Yes Conroy was incredibly busy his first year do the incredibly high number of expiring contracts the Flames had. Since then:

• The Flames have made one move in almost 16 months, and that was trading a pick for a couple of players.
• Conroy admitted he was trying to make a big splash this summer to bring on more help.
• Dreger and others have said that Conroy is getting calls about guys like Kadri and weren't looking to move him.
• Conroy has outright said the Flames aren't rebuilding. So have the Flames media and NHL insiders. You think that is am image thing? That is a real stretch.

We are in the honeymoon period with Conroy. Most people are coming around to the idea we should be rebuilding. The theme of "we missed the playoffs by one point so don't need to rebuild" is being replaced with "we have secretly been rebuilding all along". But outside of Conroys busy first 12 months dealing with expiring contracts, there is very little evident of that.

I honestly couldn't see it more differently than you do, and I do think this is making the board overall a little bi-polar with expectations and what the next moves should be.


Flames have a lot of cap space, and haven't traded futures to turn this team around, and they didn't do it at last season's deadline either. This convinces me that they are rebuilding.


I guess the argument essentially dies here for now as I see it one way, and you see it the other way. Let's revisit this after Conroy makes his next move or two, and see in which direction he is steering the team in.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I honestly couldn't see it more differently than you do, and I do think this is making the board overall a little bi-polar with expectations and what the next moves should be.


Flames have a lot of cap space, and haven't traded futures to turn this team around, and they didn't do it at last season's deadline either. This convinces me that they are rebuilding.


I guess the argument essentially dies here for now as I see it one way, and you see it the other way. Let's revisit this after Conroy makes his next move or two, and see in which direction he is steering the team in.

Honestly, the idea that Conroy is rebuilding should have died with the fact that he has done nearly nothing in 15+ months. The one thing he tried to do was add. But I agree people aren't going to agree.

[GullFoss]

Number one is negative goal differential!!!!

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Honestly, the idea that Conroy is rebuilding should have died with the fact that he has done nearly nothing in 15+ months. The one thing he tried to do was add. But I agree people aren't going to agree.

Then what other steps should have he taken? There aren't many vets to unload. The inexperience in defence is glaring, as is the goaltending.


Again, we are seeing two completely different things, and I would make the exact same rebuttal to people who don't think this is a rebuild - that he hasn't done anything for a while. It is fascinating how it is two completely opposing viewpoints given the evidence.


We will see who is right and who is wrong with whatever future moves he makes, and in what direction it shows him leaning to. Until then, it is obvious that you can't convince me that this isn't a rebuild, and I can't convince you that it is. Maybe the next moves that come will show more clarity for you if it looks like a rebuild, or more clarity for me if it shows that it isn't.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Yes Conroy was incredibly busy his first year do the incredibly high number of expiring contracts the Flames had. Since then:

• The Flames have made one move in almost 16 months, and that was trading a pick for a couple of players.
• Conroy admitted he was trying to make a big splash this summer to bring on more help.
• Dreger and others have said that Conroy is getting calls about guys like Kadri and weren't looking to move him.
• Conroy has outright said the Flames aren't rebuilding. So have the Flames media and NHL insiders. You think that is am image thing? That is a real stretch.

We are in the honeymoon period with Conroy. Most people are coming around to the idea we should be rebuilding. The theme of "we missed the playoffs by one point so don't need to rebuild" is being replaced with "we have secretly been rebuilding all along". But outside of Conroys busy first 12 months dealing with expiring contracts, there is very little evident of that.

I really disagree with this take. Flames have signed multiple players to deals including locking up some new core pieces. If the Flames were really going for it do you think they would be leaving a ton of unused cap space.

Let’s think critically here. The summer after they drafted Parekh it was clear this team was built for the bottom 10 finish needed to keep their pick. They get a massive year out of their rookie goalie, get a career high in goals from Kadri and get 25 from 22 year old Coronato. Playing with a chip on their shoulder they finish with 96pts.

Instead of buying that this is a sign of things to come Conroy does not go crazy trying to improve the team. He looks to add a low/mid-20’s left shot Dman but doesn’t get a deal done. Instead of being duped by a year whew about goes right the team maintains their flexibility and enters this season ready to prove it again. In typical flames fashion they are wildly inconsistent year over year and now appear poised to have a down year many expected last year.

Conroy is sticking to his plan about making the team younger and prioritizing the draft. Frost/Farabee was a low cost swing that hasn’t worked but cost very little and still has a chance to be better.

No the Flames are not going to the studs and burn it down trading every vet. Kadri wants to stay and the Flames want people who want to be here. He has 4 years left on his deal. Anderson is in the last year and has been available for trade all summer.

[PaperBagger'14]

The flames all time losing streak is 11 games, this streak is tied for 6th longest losing streak.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Frost/Farabee was a low cost swing that hasn’t worked but cost very little and still has a chance to be better.

I'd say Frost has worked out just fine; considerably better than Kuzmenko or Pelletier worked out for the Flyers. At this point, the Flames have plugged a gigantic hole at centre for a 2nd and a 7th. Farabee was considered a cap dump at the time. It would be nice if he played better, but it's not particularly important. One way or another, he'll be off the books by the time the Flames need the cap space.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I really disagree with this take. Flames have signed multiple players to deals including locking up some new core pieces. If the Flames were really going for it do you think they would be leaving a ton of unused cap space.

Let’s think critically here. The summer after they drafted Parekh it was clear this team was built for the bottom 10 finish needed to keep their pick. They get a massive year out of their rookie goalie, get a career high in goals from Kadri and get 25 from 22 year old Coronato. Playing with a chip on their shoulder they finish with 96pts.

Instead of buying that this is a sign of things to come Conroy does not go crazy trying to improve the team. He looks to add a low/mid-20’s left shot Dman but doesn’t get a deal done. Instead of being duped by a year whew about goes right the team maintains their flexibility and enters this season ready to prove it again. In typical flames fashion they are wildly inconsistent year over year and now appear poised to have a down year many expected last year.

Conroy is sticking to his plan about making the team younger and prioritizing the draft. Frost/Farabee was a low cost swing that hasn’t worked but cost very little and still has a chance to be better.

No the Flames are not going to the studs and burn it down trading every vet. Kadri wants to stay and the Flames want people who want to be here. He has 4 years left on his deal. Anderson is in the last year and has been available for trade all summer.

Conroy should have been trading select veterans this summer and last deadline. He should have been weaponizing our cap space. He should have been trimming the fat after the Farabee and Frost acquisition. Not trying to "take a big swing" to add a mid 20s D and telling other teams we weren't taking calls on our veterans.

Now we have a bloated roster, a predictabley bad team, and the veterans we will now try and trade will likely have diminished value.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Conroy should have been trading select veterans this summer and last deadline. He should have been weaponizing our cap space. He should have been trimming the fat after the Farabee and Frost acquisition. Not trying to "take a big swing" to add a mid 20s D and telling other teams we weren't taking calls on our veterans.

Now we have a bloated roster, a predictabley bad team, and the veterans we will now try and trade will likely have diminished value.

What team is the model for how you think things should be done? Let’s compare.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Conroy should have been trading select veterans this summer and last deadline. He should have been weaponizing our cap space.

Cap space stopped being a weapon when the cap started going up again.

He should have been trimming the fat after the Farabee and Frost acquisition.

What fat? The team operated most of that year just above the salary floor.

Not trying to "take a big swing" to add a mid 20s D and telling other teams we weren't taking calls on our veterans.

Did they take a big swing? No. Did they refuse any calls on veterans? Not that you or anyone else knows of. In other words, you're mad about their words, not their actions. You're barking up the wrong tree.

Now we have a bloated roster, a predictabley bad team, and the veterans we will now try and trade will likely have diminished value.

The team has a 22-man roster. How is that bloated? And why do you think GMs have such bad memories that they'll base a player's trade value on the most recent seven-game stretch?

[browntrout]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Yes Conroy was incredibly busy his first year do the incredibly high number of expiring contracts the Flames had. Since then:

• The Flames have made one move in almost 16 months, and that was trading a pick for a couple of players.
• Conroy admitted he was trying to make a big splash this summer to bring on more help.
• Dreger and others have said that Conroy is getting calls about guys like Kadri and weren't looking to move him.
• Conroy has outright said the Flames aren't rebuilding. So have the Flames media and NHL insiders. You think that is am image thing? That is a real stretch.

We are in the honeymoon period with Conroy. Most people are coming around to the idea we should be rebuilding. The theme of "we missed the playoffs by one point so don't need to rebuild" is being replaced with "we have secretly been rebuilding all along". But outside of Conroys busy first 12 months dealing with expiring contracts, there is very little evident of that.

Look I don't like some of the moves Conroy made as well, I thought he should have waited with Wolf, maybe given it another 6 months to see if he can continue with his great goaltending into his third year, but at the end of the day, they get a starting goaltender signed for 8 years, ok work.

The Backlund contract IMO raised eyebrows, seems like a retirement contract to me, but given where the team is, it's really nothing in the grand scheme of things.

To me the most important theme is acquiring draft capital, the team needs to find a diamond in the rough, and they need to take as many shots as they can, because statistically most will never even play in the NHL.

The real issue is draft position, the team needs 2-3 years of top 5 picks and they need them in a hurry, because it takes 3-5 years for most of those pics to develop

They are in year 3 of the rebuild and I can easily see it taking at least another 5 years before the team becomes competitive.

[Wedge]

I would be ecstatic if the only games we won over the next two years would be against Edmonton, Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, and Las Vegas. I know we are split on this, but I am one of those who are sick of blowing my load over being in a run for making the playoffs.