Tensions in the Middle East

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Do you believe speaking events within one nation’s borders are valid provocations of military action from another nation, to the point where they justify those actions?

Yes or no?

Not in isolation. When combined with actual military action, they can be. I also don't think Israel has some obligation to sit back, while a nation that says they are going to destroy you repeatedly develops weapons to destroy them.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

For me personally, I think it's completely valid to prevent proliferation among certain societies. Islamic fundamentalism is basically a doomsday cult that looks forward to the end and fulfilling prophecies that will get them there (one of those being that the day of judgment can't come until all Jews are gone). It's like those Christian fundies that lobby for policy that they think will bring the final judgement closer. And while those guys scare the crap out of me and have way more influence in the U.S. than I'd like, they aren't in complete control like their counterparts are in places like Iran and Gaza. I think it's also hard to deny that Iran openly and vigorously sponsors terrorism. Iran getting nukes is only one step close to non-state actors getting nukes because I don't believe for a second that they wouldn't proliferate them to terrorist organizations anywhere in the world.

How religious do you think the leaders in Israel and in their cabinet are? Do you think they've ever taken action to fulfill prophecies from their book?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by blankall

Those "Death to Arab" chants seem specifically designed to provoke people. If the Israeli government hosted an international conference and invited similar people from across the world to speak, it'd be a much bigger provocation.

Perhaps you are not familiar with the speeches that occur within the Knesset and attempt to exterminate Palestinians?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by blankall

Not in isolation. When combined with actual military action, they can be. I also don't think Israel has some obligation to sit back, while a nation that says they are going to destroy you repeatedly develops weapons to destroy them.

I guess we can also firmly say that America deserved 9/11 if this is the metric we're using.

[rubecube]

Also, this is ####ing rich.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-...issile-soroka/

World
Israel vows to hold Iran's leader accountable for "war crimes" after Iranian missile slams into hospital
Updated on: June 19, 2025 / 2:37 PM EDT / CBS/AP

Tel Aviv, Israel — An Iranian missile slammed into the main hospital in southern Israel early Thursday, leaving dozens of people with minor injuries, causing significant damage, and drawing a swift vow from Israeli leaders of intensified attacks on Iran's military and "government targets." Israel's defense chief accused Iran of war crimes and said its Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei would be held accountable.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I guess we can also firmly say that America deserved 9/11 if this is the metric we're using.

Pffft. That's absolutely correct depending on where you're from. Metric or not.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Also, this is ####ing rich.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-...issile-soroka/

Lol, you sure you want to set that precedent, Israel?

[rubecube]

We have a country that is mass-murdering children, women, journalists, etc. Another country that's basically unleashed a modern day gestapo on its own people, is arresting people for free speech, and people are really looking at those two countries and saying "Yeah, let's these guys execute a regime change."

Jfc.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Cappy

From what?

The leading MO is that Iran has defied the NPT and are producing nukes. Pointman specifically used the "Treaty" to defend this action.

I suspect defend themselves from Iran, Hamas, and Hezbollah.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by activeStick

How religious do you think the leaders in Israel and in their cabinet are? Do you think they've ever taken action to fulfill prophecies from their book?

If you're asking me if I think there is a cabal extreme orthodox Jewish rabbis who use the literal translation of holy books to make domestic and foreign policy decisions, and one head rabbi is executing state decisions and head of the military, then no I don't believe that.

Does Iran have a cabal of Islamic fundamentalist clerics using the literal translation of holy books to make domestic and foreign policy decisions, and one head cleric at the top with the power to execute state decisions and is head of the military, then yes I do believe that. That is literally what Iran's constitution is.

Iran's constitution is based on the notions of spreading Islam and preparing for judgment. It states that only Allah has the right to legislate (which they do through clerical "experts" interpreting holy books) and all outcomes are his will, which removes the mortal human element from decisions. Israel and Iran aren't even comparable on levels of theocracy.

I absolutely would never want a fundamental cleric from any religion with the ability to deploy nukes. If Iran became a nuclear power, my personal belief is that they don't want it as a deterrent, but as something that would definitely be used.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

If you're asking me if I think there is a cabal extreme orthodox Jewish rabbis who use the literal translation of holy books to make domestic and foreign policy decisions, and one head rabbi is executing state decisions and head of the military, then no I don't believe that.

Does Iran have a cabal of Islamic fundamentalist clerics using the literal translation of holy books to make domestic and foreign policy decisions, and one head cleric at the top with the power to execute state decisions and is head of the military, then yes I do believe that. That is literally what Iran's constitution is.

Iran's constitution is based on the notions of spreading Islam and preparing for judgment. It states that only Allah has the right to legislate (which they do through clerical "experts" interpreting holy books) and all outcomes are his will, which removes the mortal human element from decisions. Israel and Iran aren't even comparable on levels of theocracy.

I absolutely would never want a fundamental cleric from any religion with the ability to deploy nukes. If Iran became a nuclear power, my personal belief is that they don't want it as a deterrent, but as something that would definitely be used.

There's been many examples of members of the Knesset quoting religious texts to justify actions Israel takes. Netanyahu too, made the headlines a couple of years ago when he used the Amalek reference to justify Israel's brutal attack on Gaza, a reference used many times by the far right (many are members of their government) to justify killing Palestinians. Does it worry you also that these people have nukes?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Cappy

What i suspected, but wanted to be clear.

So Israel in enforcing a treaty that they are not a party to; using mechanisms of "enforcement" that do not exist in the Treaty.

No. The treaty was an answer to the questions:

Why Israel is allowed to have nukes and Iran is not?
Why USA and Israel decide who can have nukes and who can not?

There's a simple and clear answer to that.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It was a silly attempt at justification by Pointman. It's weird how he is only interested in holding some countries to account for their obligations, and not others. I'm pretty sure Israel signed something saying they couldn't blow up children because they are scared, but that doesn't appear to stop them.


Or Russia wanting Crimea back for reasons that violate many international laws and treaties they signed, but it was kind of OK they killed all those people in the process. Moral consistency doesn't seem to be something they teach in Russian schools, I guess.

Nothing weird about it. I was commenting on Iran. There are also many other bad things in this world. Did you expect me to write a post that would hold ALL countries in the world accountable for ALL bad things they did?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Maybe read up on your history or continue to avoid weighing in on a conflict you don’t understand, because you just contradicted yourself or conveniently omitted that detail in your first “take” on the subject.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-ir...3e4a486946bcb8

2010 — The Stuxnet computer virus is discovered and widely believed to be a joint U.S.-Israeli creation. The virus disrupted and destroyed Iranian centrifuges.

2020 — Alleged Israeli attacks against Iran’s nuclear program are stepped up significantly after the disintegration of the 2015 nuclear deal meant to keep Iran from developing nuclear weapons.

July 2020 — A mysterious explosion tears apart a centrifuge production plant at Iran’s Natanz nuclear enrichment facility. Iran blames the attack on Israel.

November 2020 — A top Iranian military nuclear scientist, Mohsen Fakhrizadeh, is killed by a remote-controlled machine gun while traveling in a car outside Tehran. A top Iranian security official accuses Israel of using “electronic devices” to remotely kill the scientist, who founded Iran’s military nuclear program in the 2000s.

April 11, 2021 — An attack targets Iran’s underground nuclear facility in Natanz. Iran blames Israel, which does not claim responsibility, but Israeli media widely reports the government orchestrated a cyberattack that caused a blackout at the facility.

June 2022 — Iran accuses Israel of poisoning two nuclear scientists in different cities within three days of each other, though circumstances remain unclear.

Feb. 14, 2024 — An Israeli sabotage attack causes multiple explosions on an Iranian natural gas pipeline running from Iran’s western Chaharmahal and Bakhtiari province to cities on the Caspian Sea.

April 1, 2024 — An Israeli airstrike demolishes Iran’s Consulate in Damascus, Syria, killing 16 people, including two Iranian generals.

April 19, 2024 — A suspected Israeli strike hits an air defense system near an airport in Isfahan, Iran.

July 31, 2024 — Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh is assassinated by an apparent Israeli airstrike during a visit to Tehran. Israel had pledged to kill Haniyeh and other Hamas leaders over the Oct. 7 attack.

Oct. 26, 2024 — Israel openly attacks Iran for the first time, striking air defense systems and sites associated with its missile program.

Friday, June 13, 2025 — Israel launches blistering attacks on the heart of Iran’s nuclear and military structure, deploying warplanes and drones previously smuggled into the country to assault key facilities and kill top generals and scientists

“They didn’t attack until now” lol jfc

This is not to show Iran as the victim or without blame. They supported Hamas. They’ve bombed Israel. Both much more relevant than “they invited David Duke to speak.” And among these Israeli strikes are Iranian strikes on Israel (some preceding, some not). But the idea that Israel has done nothing until now and were simply provoked into this isn’t an educated take on the conflict.

But... Doesn't this defeat the main pro-Iran talking point? The argument was that Israel and USA have been saying for decades that Iran is close to build a nuke but it never happened. So those claims were allegedly lies?

In the light of the above, could it be that Iran was indeed somewhat close to it and it only never happened because of intense attempts by Israel and USA to slow them down?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Pointman

But... Doesn't this defeat the main pro-Iran talking point? The argument was that Israel and USA have been saying for decades that Iran is close to build a nuke but it never happened. So those claims were allegedly lies?

In the light of the above, could it be that Iran was indeed somewhat close to it and it only never happened because of intense attempts by Israel and USA to slow them down?

By all accounts from both the UN and EU, Iran was complying with the agreement they made with the Obama administration not to produce nuclear weapons. Guess who ####ed all the up, like he ####s everything up.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by activeStick

There's been many examples of members of the Knesset quoting religious texts to justify actions Israel takes. Netanyahu too, made the headlines a couple of years ago when he used the Amalek reference to justify Israel's brutal attack on Gaza, a reference used many times by the far right (many are members of their government) to justify killing Palestinians. Does it worry you also that these people have nukes?

1. Israel would never nuke Palestine, as it is too close. For the same reason North Korea would never nuke South Korea.

2. There's no way Israel nukes anyone without US approval.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Lol, you sure you want to set that precedent, Israel?

Are you consistent here? Your train of thought, if I understand correctly, is like this:

1. Hitting a civilian hospital with a missile is, in a vacuum, a war crime.
2. However, Israel has committed war crimes very recently, including actually bombing hospitals, in another war that is still raging.
3. Hence, Israel has no right to complain about enemy's missile hitting their hospital.

This logic, in itself, is consistent. So, let's consistently apply it to every participant.

1. Hamas on October 7th committed horrible war crimes, killing thousand of civilians
2. In a war that ensued, Israel conversely committed crimes on their own.
3. If you are consistent, you have to admit that Hamas can't complain about Israel war crimes for the very same reasons that Israel can't complain about Iran's war crimes.

[Looch City]

So we finally agree that Israel = Hamas = Iran= terrorist state?

[blender]

Originally Posted by Looch City

So we finally agree that Israel = Hamas = Iran= terrorist state?

You've left out the worst actor of them all, the United States, of course. And not just since Trump.

The compulsion to pick sides when discussing the Middle East is always baffling to me.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Looch City

So we finally agree that Israel = Hamas = Iran= terrorist state?

Pointman is very slowly working his way to that understanding, I think. Maybe another 5 or 10 obvious comparisons and he might get there.