Canmore population to double? Legal battle?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I've played you all for fools! (except jayswin)

Low bar to get over

[Fuzz]

Ya, I get you don't give a ####, that's been made abundantly clear. The town is already yours. Congrats, you made it what you want. Go enjoy it and tell everyone else to #### off, because you get to you use it the way you want, and if anyone tries to tell you different you will happily tell them they are wrong. It's like the ultimate FYGM. Arrogance extraordinaire. It's tough to care anymore, having seen all that made it a wonderful place to grow up turned into a place for weekenders to treat locals like ####. But that's the way the world goes. The world is ####. You care not for the loses your gains mean.

[ThisIsAnOutrage]

Originally Posted by Sliver

So what, though?

I have friends who grew up in Edgemont pseudo-mansions that live in little bungalows as adults because they can't afford to live where they grew up.
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Do you think people have a birthright to Canmore? If so, why does that just start in the 80s and 90s? Why not before then...you know, when the First Nations called it home?

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Why - just because somebody had the good fortune of being born in Canmore - do they get to stay (in your mind) before somebody new gets to love in?

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Should there be more housing in Canmore for all the displaced Canmorites? Fkn complain to full-time residents. They are the ones who vote down housing expansion. There is a housing crunch and increased prices because the residents (I'm not allowed to vote since I'm a part-timer) constantly vote, and bitch/complain against new builds.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. Canmore people are the MAGA screechers of Alberta chanting 'build a wall.' It's the same mindset. They're just missing the red hats. FYGM instead of MAGA, though. They're selfish, self centered, exclusionary and completely ignorant to how every other facet of our system of freely being allowed to buy anything we want in this country works. We're allowed to buy a place in Canmore. Canmore people need to respect their neighbours - and part time neighbours - as fellow Albertans, Canadians and humans, frankly. The vitriol is out of line and immature.

Who wouldn't want a vacation property in Canmore? If you love the mountains, love skiing and love biking around and then catching an awesome meal at a wicked restaurant then there's nowhere better in our parts.

Sadly, it's too expensive for everyone to get to enjoy, but thems the breaks, I'm afraid. Canmore need to wrap their heads around this like everyone everywhere else does when this exact same thing happens elsewhere.

Go price out a cabin in Whistler in 1992 and then price it out now. Wonder if it has gone up.

Take any random condo in Calgary, Vancouver, Toronto, etc and do the exact same thing. Let me know if you see a pattern that mimics Canmore's real estate issues.

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I really hope Canmore people are able to reflect on their build-a-wall / dey take 'er jaabs mentality at some point. It's ludicrous and it's rude.

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Canmore people are victims, but only in their own heads. They have elevated their needs, gripes and desires above everyone else's.

Best revenge is doing whatever we can to fk them over, though. Just bought a fridge. Avoided Canmore stores and went to HK e Depot in Calgary. I will not support these pricks that loath us. For every sneer I get from a Canmore jerk, I plot an asymetrical revenge to pluck a dollar out of their community and out it somewhere else. Right down to grocery shopping in Calgary to make sure I'm contributing as little to the Canmore economy as possible. Took me a couple years with my place there to get to that point...we started off being so excited to be apart of the community, but holy cow are these people #######s to us.

I have several Calgary friends with places there. Everyone has gone through the exact same trajectory. It's another funny thing about the locals. They constantly shoot themselves in the foot. I love it.

Holy ####, Sliver.

This is why you want a spear, isn't it?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GGG

Being forced to make a profit and being pushed out are independent events both can occur at the same time. Your statement is more like I don’t care if someone gets pushed out because they made a profit. Not to mention renters often get pushed and new property is at rents they can no longer afford. In general I’m anti-nimby pro development and say I don’t care about those people but it’s important to recognize the negative affects of redevelopment of existing areas.

But where does the 'forced' come in? Has there been expropriation in Canmore?

The renters thing is undeniable, but also not at all unique to Canmore.

Originally Posted by stazzy33

Yup, the Restwell Trailer Park and Spring Creek Mountain Village redevelopment is a good example.

Mobile Stationary Homes are always a tough one. I can understand why they were an appealing option several decades ago and how the now obvious inevitability wasn't so obvious back then. But it also isn't terribly different than the lifecycle of most other housing.

Not all bets pay off. Those folks enjoyed stability for decades longer than they would have had in their alternate timeline of regular renting.

And apparently that land has been owned by the same family since 1927. So it's just a Canmoron screwing other Canmorons. But obviously its because Calgarians.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

But where does the 'forced' come in? Has there been expropriation in Canmore?

The renters thing is undeniable, but also not at all unique to Canmore.



Mobile Stationary Homes are always a tough one. I can understand why they were an appealing option several decades ago and how the now obvious inevitability wasn't so obvious back then. But it also isn't terribly different than the lifecycle of most other housing.

Not all bets pay off. Those folks enjoyed stability for decades longer than they would have had in their alternate timeline of regular renting.

And apparently that land has been owned by the same family since 1927. So it's just a Canmoron screwing other Canmorons. But obviously its because Calgarians.

So now all those low cost housing options have been replaced by empty condos. Those people that lived there were families who worked in the community, worked in restaurants, grocery stores, McDonalds etc. So now those people don't exist in the community. McDonalds buses employees in. Their homes were literally replaced with weekender condos. But ya, thems the breaks. They should just shutup.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Ya, I get you don't give a ####, that's been made abundantly clear. The town is already yours. Congrats, you made it what you want. Go enjoy it and tell everyone else to #### off, because you get to you use it the way you want, and if anyone tries to tell you different you will happily tell them they are wrong. It's like the ultimate FYGM. Arrogance extraordinaire. It's tough to care anymore, having seen all that made it a wonderful place to grow up turned into a place for weekenders to treat locals like ####. But that's the way the world goes. The world is ####. You care not for the loses your gains mean.

You have it 100% backwards. You are projecting.

You think the town is yours. You don't want other people. You are telling people to #### off because you want it the way you want it.

I, on the other hand, want it to expand so people who want to live there can. I'm also supportive of completely banning all Air BnBs. That should lower the cost of real estate as more inventory is opened up. The value of my place will go down - that's fine. I don't like that it is exclusionary and too many people are priced out. I'm content with taking a personal financial hit if it means more people get to enjoy what I enjoy. There is literally zero FYGM in my attitude. It's all on the Canmore side. My attitude is let's build more to accommodate those who want to live there. I want people to be able to enjoy. I have no right to exclude others (nor do born and raised Canmorites, as though that gives them more right to the area than anybody else).

Annnnd it's locals who treat "weekenders" like ####. See, even that's a belittling name. It's Canmore people's FYGM's version of calling us illegals. You literally have a derogatory name for other people to slot them beneath you, just like MAGAs do to Mexicans.

Everything you said about the people who have vacation homes there is a projection of the Canmoreite attitude. I'm shocked you can't see it. It's glaringly obvious.

How - on god's green earth - is it a reasonable expectation to think Canmore could somehow freeze in time around 1996 and not change? The gall to think you should be able to wall up a town in my province in my country to prevent my family from enjoying what you already have. #### that.

Do you think the people in Invermere should be able to treat vacation-home owners there with any less kindness or respect than people who live there full time? Is this just a value of yours that people with a second property don't deserve to be members of a community in the way they choose to participate? Do full-time residents get to dictate what a community means to them and impose that view - which, of course, is impossible for somebody who doesn't live there full time to accommodate? Or should people be allowed to interact with their home(s) however they like (within the bounds of rules/respect/laws)?

Has it escaped your notice that Canmore would just basically implode without Calgary money? What is the industry there? Tourism. You want Canmore to be dumpy staff residences and hotels? Sounds like a great place. Or, is it better for a bunch of people to be air dropping in millions of dollars to that community while not using the services they're paying for? You think elevation place is there without Calgary money? That hospital? The beautiful infrastructure?

Canmore people - if they like the town - should thank those of us who came along and were like, 'hey Einsteins...maybe stop dumping coal tailings into the river, let's stop blowing up the sides of mountains and cut out the asinine mining before we have another Frank Slide on our hands.'

And also, if you want Canmore to go back to its roots, I'm in. Let's find the people who profiteered off decimating the environment there (likely through their decedents now), scoop that money back and raze the town and get it back to pristine in anticipation of handing it back to the first nations. Surely you wouldn't think the clock starts at 1978 or whatever date works well for your friends and family. If we're doing this, let's get it back to its original owners in its original condition.

I'm so sick of the hypocrites in Canmore that I would write off my expensive condo and take a 100% loss just to see Canmore people have to put their money where their mouth is. It's no more yours than it is mine and no more mine than it is yours. If anybody is going to get birthright dibs on this place, it's our indigenous communities. I swear on my mom's grave if you can convince Canmore residents to get behind that - which is consistent with what they're saying about newcomers ruining the place unless they're all hypocrites and truly do have a FYGM attitude - I will sign over my deed and help tear it to the ground. Either you accept this place is evolving and changing like every other place on planet earth or you believe people shouldn't be allowed to come and be complicit in its evolution. If we're going with plan B, though, we're taking it all the way back to nature...not just to magical 1997 that benefits you and your buddies. That would be preposterous.

[Slava]

I'm just so happy to see Fuzz making the case for less development because I know in other threads he thinks that I should accept development!

[Fuzz]

Sliver, part of it is you have no understanding of the history of Canmore, and seem to have no interest in understanding it. The very reason Canmore is how it is now is because it has been continually railroaded by outsiders who promise one thing and do another. Their isn't housing for residents because those lies are never followed though.

I know you are just gonna scoff and huff, but here's the reality for many. They lived in Canmore when the industry was mining. The struggled mightily, as many mining communities did at the end. It certainly wasn't wining the lottery being born in Canmore, I remember many struggling years of lean times, and friends with parents on limited incomes. When the mine closed their was a real worry for the future of the town, but the Olympics changed that. But in that period of the early 80's to mid 90's Canmore didn't survive on tourism. What happened was that Banff became unaffordable and largely undesirable due to the tourism. People chose to live in Canmore and work in Banff. With the closure to new development, this was very common, and Canmore did well in this period. It wasn't screwed, and is a sign it would be just fine without being a weekend community(sorry for the offense, what do you want me to call it?). So you have a large portion of the population at that time keeping Banff functioning and tourists largely going there. Most locals spoke fondly of that arrangement at the time. Being able to get away from the busyness was a big benefit. And ya, this was peak Canmore. All the beauty, none of the drawbacks.

Well since then, the beauty has been replaced by condos and golf courses. Many local trails were lost, or closed due to proximity to golfers(they seriously complained about one trail being to close and distracting). So it's not just the condos, it's that their was a huge loss of outdoor terrain to use.

And I know! You don't give a ####! But many people do, and that's why they may be a bit resentful.

And honestly AirBnB's at least are occupied almost the entire year, giving more people the opportunity to see and be in Canmore, vs you and your crew who exclusively take up space but only use it a fraction of the time.

The reality is, the experience of Canmore is going to continue to degrade until it is Whistler. Busy, expensive, and devoid of youth and community.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Slava

I'm just so happy to see Fuzz making the case for less development because I know in other threads he thinks that I should accept development!

I'm not against development, but second homes sitting empty sure don't help our housing situation in Canada.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sliver, part of it is you have no understanding of the history of Canmore, and seem to have no interest in understanding it. The very reason Canmore is how it is now is because it has been continually railroaded by outsiders who promise one thing and do another. Their isn't housing for residents because those lies are never followed though.

I know you are just gonna scoff and huff, but here's the reality for many. They lived in Canmore when the industry was mining. The struggled mightily, as many mining communities did at the end. It certainly wasn't wining the lottery being born in Canmore, I remember many struggling years of lean times, and friends with parents on limited incomes. When the mine closed their was a real worry for the future of the town, but the Olympics changed that. But in that period of the early 80's to mid 90's Canmore didn't survive on tourism. What happened was that Banff became unaffordable and largely undesirable due to the tourism. People chose to live in Canmore and work in Banff. With the closure to new development, this was very common, and Canmore did well in this period. It wasn't screwed, and is a sign it would be just fine without being a weekend community(sorry for the offense, what do you want me to call it?). So you have a large portion of the population at that time keeping Banff functioning and tourists largely going there. Most locals spoke fondly of that arrangement at the time. Being able to get away from the busyness was a big benefit. And ya, this was peak Canmore. All the beauty, none of the drawbacks.

Well since then, the beauty has been replaced by condos and golf courses. Many local trails were lost, or closed due to proximity to golfers(they seriously complained about one trail being to close and distracting). So it's not just the condos, it's that their was a huge loss of outdoor terrain to use.

And I know! You don't give a ####! But many people do, and that's why they may be a bit resentful.

And honestly AirBnB's at least are occupied almost the entire year, giving more people the opportunity to see and be in Canmore, vs you and your crew who exclusively take up space but only use it a fraction of the time.

The reality is, the experience of Canmore is going to continue to degrade until it is Whistler. Busy, expensive, and devoid of youth and community.

This is all part of progress unfortunately. If there wasn't outside investment and attraction the community would continue to struggle and maybe it would have died altogether. Outsiders brought in life and rejuvenated the community and will continue to do so, hopefully. This is the same as gentrification in urban areas. Land has certain value and appeal and at some point it changes from what it historically was into something that serves modern society.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

This is all part of progress unfortunately. If there wasn't outside investment and attraction the community would continue to struggle and maybe it would have died altogether. Outsiders brought in life and rejuvenated the community and will continue to do so, hopefully. This is the same as gentrification in urban areas. Land has certain value and appeal and at some point it changes from what it historically was into something that serves modern society.

Why does everyone keep saying this. I've already pointed out how it functioned as a bedroom community for Banff, and could easily survive on that alone, as it did in the past. It's just something people keep repeating because it helps their argument, and makes them feel like a requirement for the survival of the town. It's fake news!

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sliver, part of it is you have no understanding of the history of Canmore, and seem to have no interest in understanding it. The very reason Canmore is how it is now is because it has been continually railroaded by outsiders who promise one thing and do another. Their isn't housing for residents because those lies are never followed though.

I know you are just gonna scoff and huff, but here's the reality for many. They lived in Canmore when the industry was mining. The struggled mightily, as many mining communities did at the end. It certainly wasn't wining the lottery being born in Canmore, I remember many struggling years of lean times, and friends with parents on limited incomes. When the mine closed their was a real worry for the future of the town, but the Olympics changed that. But in that period of the early 80's to mid 90's Canmore didn't survive on tourism. What happened was that Banff became unaffordable and largely undesirable due to the tourism. People chose to live in Canmore and work in Banff. With the closure to new development, this was very common, and Canmore did well in this period. It wasn't screwed, and is a sign it would be just fine without being a weekend community(sorry for the offense, what do you want me to call it?). So you have a large portion of the population at that time keeping Banff functioning and tourists largely going there. Most locals spoke fondly of that arrangement at the time. Being able to get away from the busyness was a big benefit. And ya, this was peak Canmore. All the beauty, none of the drawbacks.

Well since then, the beauty has been replaced by condos and golf courses. Many local trails were lost, or closed due to proximity to golfers(they seriously complained about one trail being to close and distracting). So it's not just the condos, it's that their was a huge loss of outdoor terrain to use.

And I know! You don't give a ####! But many people do, and that's why they may be a bit resentful.

And honestly AirBnB's at least are occupied almost the entire year, giving more people the opportunity to see and be in Canmore, vs you and your crew who exclusively take up space but only use it a fraction of the time.

The reality is, the experience of Canmore is going to continue to degrade until it is Whistler. Busy, expensive, and devoid of youth and community.

But why - in your version - does history only start when white guys came along and started blasting holes all over the mountains and dumping toxins into the river? That's such a hypocritical stance. It has always been evolving since Europeans first set foot there until this very day. You don't get to hit a pause button at Canmore's developmental stage that you liked best. That's fkn crazy, dude.

And if we're looking for some point in history where it was perfect for you, why don't you apply that same logic and move back a little further to when it was Indigenous communities living and migrating through the area? You honestly don't see what you're doing here? I can't believe that.

History doesn't start when the first black and white photos of miners abusing Chinese guys were taken (want me to post some links to how Chinese people were treated in Canmore? Recall HaLing peak's former name? Do you know who were given the most dangerous jobs in the mines?)? The history goes long before Columbus sailed the ocean blue. Canmore has an ugly history. It did not start in 1985 when it was super fun riding BMXs around with your crew.

And you keep bemoaning the loss of community in Canmore. It has changed, that's all. Like Calgary changed a bit when you moved here and then changed some more as others moved here (compared to how it was when locals grew up here until the "out of towners" descended upon our idyllic city).

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Why does everyone keep saying this. I've already pointed out how it functioned as a bedroom community for Banff, and could easily survive on that alone, as it did in the past. It's just something people keep repeating because it helps their argument, and makes them feel like a requirement for the survival of the town. It's fake news!

Canmore wasn't going to thrive or be much more than a fuel stop if it wasn't for the Olympic investment in the 80s and the land sales that followed the coal mine closure.

[TheIronMaiden]

I can understand Fuzz's perspective. The Province is changing. The small town I went to school in has doubled in the last 15 year, and will no doubt double again in the next 10. It is not the little agricultural community that it used to be, it is a glorified suburb.

Just the same, in the last 20 years there has been an astounding amount of acreages developed. Most of whom knocked down trees or carved up native grass to plant pristine city slicker lawns. They create traffic, and eye sore buildings and have kids that break our gates and do burnouts at the end of our lanes on their quads. Truth is a hate them and it feels like they destroyed something precious to me.

But Sliver is right. You can't freeze time in 1997. The world is changing and the country is growing and people want to move to these places because they're beautiful and peaceful, ( even though they change it simply by arriving). They want to be there and love it for many of the same reasons I do, and who am I to play god and tell people that they were too late, or that it's only for me. In the end that just makes me miserable and hateful and that does the world ( and the environment) no good.

This is what I tell people when they talk about the changes in the county. Move to north Saskatchewan if you want something to yourself, because Alberta is only going to grow.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Slava

I'm just so happy to see Fuzz making the case for less development because I know in other threads he thinks that I should accept development!

At least I'm consistent, eh

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sliver, part of it is you have no understanding of the history of Canmore, and seem to have no interest in understanding it. The very reason Canmore is how it is now is because it has been continually railroaded by outsiders who promise one thing and do another. Their isn't housing for residents because those lies are never followed though.

Are you sure your understanding of history has come from reliable narrators?

Developers failing to follow through on the grand visions they present is not a unique problem. It's up to councils and planning depts to include teeth in their codes and approval proccesses.

As for the outsiders, I've already mentioned that Spring Creek is an inside job. That's gotta the most central big development by far.


Do you have any ideas how things could be better? Maybe some sort of fairly aggressive vacancy tax? Everyone has to report to a checkpoint and show their papers every other Wednesday? (I'm only half joking)

[Table 5]

Regardless of history, when your population explodes, and you basically only have a small handful of mountain towns within day-trip driving range of Calgary, it was inevitable that those places would get popular/expensive.

There's no going back. If you want more affordable living again, the only fix is adding more supply...in Canmore and elsewhere. Trying to restrict development/visitation will only make the real estate even more expensive/exclusive.

[blankall]

The kids of Canmore growing up in their small town was never going to happen. Baby Boomers are hanging onto their properties. So if the boomers 2 kids are looking to raise their own families there, you're looking at tripling the amount of housing.

The town has built a bunch of condos, and the locals are blaming those condos for the reason that their kids can't buy property to raise their own families. That's not the problem. Empty nesters are the problem, and its a problem all over North America, not just Canmore. If a 60+ year old person has an empty bedroom, in the middle of a nationwide housing crisis, how do you turn around and blame the condo in the middle of the city centre for the lack of family housing?

[powderjunkie]

Just spitballing another wacky solution is the goal is ensuring a higher local to weekender ratio: parking maximums. It should be possible to live in Canmore without a car. You're probably not going to come out every other weekend if there's nowhere nearby to leave your car

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by blankall

The kids of Canmore growing up in their small town was never going to happen. Baby Boomers are hanging onto their properties. So if the boomers 2 kids are looking to raise their own families there, you're looking at tripling the amount of housing.

The town has built a bunch of condos, and the locals are blaming those condos for the reason that their kids can't buy property to raise their own families. That's not the problem. Empty nesters are the problem, and its a problem all over North America, not just Canmore. If a 60+ year old person has an empty bedroom, in the middle of a nationwide housing crisis, how do you turn around and blame the condo in the middle of the city centre for the lack of family housing?

The sad thing is by the time that boomers give up their family sized homes, their children who will inherit them will already be 55-60 years old and the cycle will continue.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by blankall

The kids of Canmore growing up in their small town was never going to happen. Baby Boomers are hanging onto their properties. So if the boomers 2 kids are looking to raise their own families there, you're looking at tripling the amount of housing.

The town has built a bunch of condos, and the locals are blaming those condos for the reason that their kids can't buy property to raise their own families. That's not the problem. Empty nesters are the problem, and its a problem all over North America, not just Canmore. If a 60+ year old person has an empty bedroom, in the middle of a nationwide housing crisis, how do you turn around and blame the condo in the middle of the city centre for the lack of family housing?

Not to mention it's absolutely perplexing why Fuzz thinks the kids raised there should have some sort of priority position in buying real estate at a discount from market value. That's not even a thing anywhere in the world. It's super dumb, honestly. Who fkn cares if they can or can't. Real estate - in Canada - goes to the person with the budget to buy what something is worth.

Canmore people think they should get special treatment, though. Totally weird.