[PGT] Flames 0 - Wild 3

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Come on, man. Leave this chintzy stuff aside, it doesn’t move the conversation forward.

If I read you wrong, what did I read wrong? Is there something that is his fault? What do you think Huberdeau needs to own and how do we recognize unfair criticism when a lot of what is brushed off doesn’t seem to be impacting anyone else even half as much?



And you know the easiest solution to this is to swap the coach, because an 8 year/8 figure contract is tough to move. But what then? Is the entire team from goaltender to coach supposed to be built around one winger? That seems wild.

I wouldn’t be upset if the Flames fired Sutter because realistically it’s the easiest option to try to get things working. But knowing you canned a cup-winner to appease a winger that’s never even done anything in the playoffs? Oof. Not exciting.

Both need to go but you can’t get rid of Huberdeau. Nobody would want to touch him. The only question left is can Sutter make it work with Huberdeau. Not the way he is doing it now, no matter how many cups he has won

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Come on, man. Leave this chintzy stuff aside, it doesn’t move the conversation forward.

If I read you wrong, what did I read wrong? Is there something that is his fault? What do you think Huberdeau needs to own and how do we recognize unfair criticism when a lot of what is brushed off doesn’t seem to be impacting anyone else even half as much?



And you know the easiest solution to this is to swap the coach, because an 8 year/8 figure contract is tough to move. But what then? Is the entire team from goaltender to coach supposed to be built around one winger? That seems wild.

I wouldn’t be upset if the Flames fired Sutter because realistically it’s the easiest option to try to get things working. But knowing you canned a cup-winner to appease a winger that’s never even done anything in the playoffs? Oof. Not exciting.

Chintzy? I said: "and for the blame that should fall to him, I think much of it is beyond his control"

You quoted: "and the blame that should fall on him is out of his control"

Pretty different statements. I never said nothing is his fault. I do think, however, that it is difficult to separate what should fall on him and what shouldn't because it is all inter-related.

And I am always hesitant to start the 'fire the coach' talk for the most part, but I think Sutter and this roster are not working out. And I think Huberdeau and Sutter are not working out (though we'll see what he looks like next year). As some have said, you can't fire all the players, and Huberdeau is going to be here for a long time, so the Sutter conversation has to be had.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by zamler

I love this argument, "it's not Darryl's fault because he is Darryl Sutter."

Did Sutter force Markstrom to play terrible? Goaltending is the issue all season.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Confidence is a funny thing too and it looks destroyed with him.
In some ways he does remind me of Tanguay, including that both are flow players. When that flow is disrupted it can really impact their game.
Huberdeau looks like a guy who has forgotten what has made him successful for a very long time.
The best thing for him would probably be time away from the rink and a chance to reset this summer.

I am absolutely disgusted by Huberdeau, and still, I hope that you're right. I fear it is unlikely he will ever be the impact player he was, but I hope he can contribute somehow. Unfortunately, the team will go where he goes. 10.5 million in cap space will do that...

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I am absolutely disgusted by Huberdeau, and still, I hope that you're right. I fear it is unlikely he will ever be the impact player he was, but I hope he can contribute somehow. Unfortunately, the team will go where he goes. 10.5 million in cap space will do that...

Huberdeau averaged over a point per game for 7 seasons, and 1.2 points per game for his last 4.

He had 7 different coaches in Florida in his time there.

I think it's more likely this year was a crazy abberation than he just flat out lost it or it's Darryl Sutter's fault.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I am absolutely disgusted by Huberdeau, and still, I hope that you're right. I fear it is unlikely he will ever be the impact player he was, but I hope he can contribute somehow. Unfortunately, the team will go where he goes. 10.5 million in cap space will do that...

Minnesota is spending $16 million in cap space on nothing and they're doing alright.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Huberdeau averaged over a point per game for 7 seasons, and 1.2 points per game for his last 4.

He had 7 different coaches in Florida in his time there.

I think it's more likely this year was a crazy abberation than he just flat out lost it or it's Darryl Sutter's fault.

This still tells its a coach/player issue

Darryl is pretty polarizing, even if the players say otherwise

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

Did Sutter force Markstrom to play terrible? Goaltending is the issue all season.

Is it the only issue though?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

This still tells its a coach/player issue

Darryl is pretty polarizing, even if the players say otherwise

The player isn't failing on the coached side of the game. His defensive metrics have never been better.

Spin a rama give aways and unforced turnovers aren't "man I wish my coach wasn't so mean!" mistakes.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The player isn't failing on the coached side of the game. His defensive metrics have never been better.

Spin a rama give aways and unforced turnovers aren't "man I wish my coach wasn't so mean!" mistakes.

true, but confidence is a fickle mistress

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Its not a narrative its reality...like what are you even talking about they have 30th ranked goaltending FFS it obviously cost them the season do you even watch games?

They scored 3 goals that day and allowed 4 on an expected .75


The whole point was the Wild score less than the Flames and their average goaltending has them in a divisional spot

Anyway no point in arguing with you, you aren't even listening you are just looking for a fight...nobody is blaming goaltending tonight but the near hopeless situation they are in tonight is mainly due to .890 goaltending.

You are funny. Just looking for a fight?

I wished you a fine evening, which is quite the opposite - it is disengaging

I will offer a couple of remarks.

Last year, Markstrom was getting great results. I thought he was a good goalie, with career average to slightly above stats, that was benefitting from a team making his life easy and playing pretty much mistake free hockey. You were trumpeting that Markstrom was elite and spewing vitriol at me for not being in love with some of his fundamentals.

This year, the script has flipped on the team. My view is that the team, despite all metrics showing they carry the play (and by extension should be out scoring the opposition), that they are on the wrong side of the stats. The team doesn’t score because they are shooting for rebounds, but not doing what it takes, winning the battle in tight that they are playing for. Meanwhile, when they have breakdowns, they are bad ones. My position is that the goalies are better than the stats suggest. Yes, they have given up some costly goals, but many are due to the team

Remember last night when Sam Steel found himself all alone out front and Marky made a dynamite save?

Greg Millen basically said ‘in defense of the goaltenders, it’s been the same story all year.’ He also has noticed and mentioned the high number of very bad breakdowns.

Meanwhile, I’m here, with a view that is in pragmatic and pretty consistent, saying that people place too much emphasis on what the goalies do, that it’s the team in front of them, and the position they put them in for success

Meanwhile, you have swung from euphoria to despair. Last year it was ‘how dare you not love this elite goalie’ and this year it’s ‘everything is the goalies’ fault’

I wasn’t looking for a fight. I really didn’t want to discuss with you.

Last night, goaltending wasn’t an issue. You brought it up. I wished you a good evening, looking to disengage.

A fine day to you

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

Did Sutter force Markstrom to play terrible? Goaltending is the issue all season.

No goaltending is not the only problem

Even with a good goalie , you can’t expect to win every close games unless you have Hasek

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And my point is that guys go through the same things Huberdeau is going through all the time and don’t completely crater. As I said, he’s been tried with everyone but Dube and he seems to make everyone but Lucic worse. I’m not meaning to dismiss anything about ice-time or whatever, I just have trouble buying it as an explanation for the 180 the player has taken.

I think part of what I’m struggling with in having the conversation is exactly what you said: “He’s getting more blame than he deserves, and the blame that should fall on him is out of his control” which is basically saying none of it is his fault. He’s a $10M elite playmaker. Suggesting nothing is truly his fault just seems absurd to me. If he can go from a 115 point player to a 55 point player over 82 games and none of it is under his control… I don’t know… kind of seems like a disaster of a contract already. Some of this has to be in his control.

Your notion that Huberdeau has played with everyone was called out and proven false in the pre game thread yet continue to run with it.

Huberdeau has played 70% plus of the season with the one man show who's heart is still in Denver.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

Did Sutter force Markstrom to play terrible? Goaltending is the issue all season.

This is great news. Get a goaltender team is fixed.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

No goaltending is not the only problem

Even with a good goalie , you can’t expect to win every close games unless you have Hasek

The last two games have been a good example of what's wrong with the team even when they get good goaltending. Both opposing goalies were let off the hook. Other than the Toffoli breakaway I really didn't think they any of their chances were dangerous. And it was embarrassing for a team fighting for their lives.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by zamler

This is great news. Get a goaltender team is fixed.

Got good goaltending the last 2.75 games

0-2-1

Effort and goaltending just never seem to coincidence within the same game. And that might be the most infuriating thing about watching this team

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Is it the only issue though?

No but it's clearly the major one that steamrolled into the other ones

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Chintzy? I said: "and for the blame that should fall to him, I think much of it is beyond his control"

You quoted: "and the blame that should fall on him is out of his control"

Pretty different statements. I never said nothing is his fault. I do think, however, that it is difficult to separate what should fall on him and what shouldn't because it is all inter-related.

And I am always hesitant to start the 'fire the coach' talk for the most part, but I think Sutter and this roster are not working out. And I think Huberdeau and Sutter are not working out (though we'll see what he looks like next year). As some have said, you can't fire all the players, and Huberdeau is going to be here for a long time, so the Sutter conversation has to be had.

The gap isn’t as big between those statements as you think it is if you can manage to point out things that aren’t his fault but can’t bring yourself to identify anything that is.

Seriously, how do we hold him accountable in any way? You can’t trade everyone but why would you when almost everyone else is doing well under Sutter? I’m fine with criticizing Sutter or cutting him loose entirely, as at least that’s something different, but I’m just searching for someone to explain why Huberdeau gets a free pass or, if we are allowed to criticize him, what criticisms people think are valid?

The responses to criticism or Huberdeau are either to blame Sutter entirely, or some vague “maybe Huberdeau shares some of the blame but we can’t begin to speculate on how we should go about assigning it.” Doesn’t make sense to me.

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Your notion that Huberdeau has played with everyone was called out and proven false in the pre game thread yet continue to run with it.

Huberdeau has played 70% plus of the season with the one man show who's heart is still in Denver.

“Was called out and proven false”? For one, who cares? If you think it’s baloney move along. But if you don’t then two, who did he play with the other 30%? Ghosts? And what about the guy who plays on the other side of Kadri? Or is it just 70% with one guy and that’s it?

He’s had multiple games with everyone and has done nothing with it. It doesn’t really matter how long the stretches were, he’s made everyone worse. Lindholm/Toffoli got better without him. Mangiapane got better without him. Backlund/Coleman got better without him.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Got good goaltending the last 2.75 games

0-2-1

Effort and goaltending just never seem to coincidence within the same game. And that might be the most infuriating thing about watching this team

This shows it's more than goaltending.

We all know goaltending is by far the biggest issue this season but I'm not convinced the team would be great even with solid goaltending.
I know a lot of people have held onto that as fact, backed by advanced stats and whatnot, but I don't think the team would have enough regardless.

My fear is they'll be running it back next year and thinking they're just good goaltending away from being a contender & we'll find out that's not the case with another year wasted before facing that truth.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Got good goaltending the last 2.75 games

0-2-1

Effort and goaltending just never seem to coincidence within the same game. And that might be the most infuriating thing about watching this team

The team is cursed. The goaltending struggles all year, only to start to right itself just when the rest of the team throws in the towel, emotionally.

The entire season has been a pass-the-baton situation of problems. Each time one improves or gets corrected, a new one pops up