Valimaki: ‘Stupid’ that he’s sitting

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

What?

He is a list of defensemen over 26 with the Flames:

Tanev 31
Gudbranson 29
Stone 31

Tanev is not mediocre. Full stop.

Stone is the perfect popcorn muncher and is not in anyone's way.

Gudbranson is a solid NHL defenseman who is better than any of the players you seem to be concerned about.

The Flames organization is full of young defensemen, and they look to be doing a hell of a job of developing them - you know, being the best defensive team in the NHL and all, despite having a very young D core.

But sure, Kinvall might not be able to crack the AHL lineup, so the organization is a failure. Sure.

Since when has Tanev ever been considered mediocre and the part that you bolded says both levels of the organization...

Mediocre Vets:

Zadorov (currently in his 7th full NHL season)
Stone (NHL vet)
Desimone (veteran tweener)
Welinski (veteran tweener)
Gravel (veteran tweener)
Poolman (not quite a veteran pro yet, but also not an NHL prospect)

The Flames org essentially has a full d-squad of mediocre veteran defensemen that are taking away opportunities from NHL-ready prospects like Valimaki and Mackey and AHL-ready prospects like Kuznetsov, and Solovyov.

Pushing the NHL-ready guys like Valimaki down to the AHL has an undesirable cascading effect on the org.

[talladega.25]

Since we are on the topic of Dmen. What is the injury status of Kinnval? He's been out a while and I was excited to see him play. He might be a good add at some point but its been dead silent. He was listed as week to week not LTIR.

[powderjunkie]

Only 3 teams have played more games than the Flames so far this year, so it's not like he's even getting very much practice time.

He needs to be playing somewhere. Stockton has 4 home games in the next week starting tomorrow

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by boogerz

Since when has Tanev ever been considered mediocre and the part that you bolded says both levels of the organization...

Mediocre Vets:

Zadorov (currently in his 7th full NHL season)
Stone (NHL vet)
Desimone (veteran tweener)
Welinski (veteran tweener)
Gravel (veteran tweener)
Poolman (not quite a veteran pro yet, but also not an NHL prospect)

The Flames org essentially has a full d-squad of mediocre veteran defensemen that are taking away opportunities from NHL-ready prospects like Valimaki and Mackey and AHL-ready prospects like Kuznetsov, and Solovyov.

Pushing the NHL-ready guys like Valimaki down to the AHL has an undesirable cascading effect on the org.

Sorry, but you're reaching, and you're wrong. Zadorov is not a vet that is in someone else's way. Neither is Poolman. Stone is eating popcorn and isn't taking up anyone else's job.

Vets are there to stabilize, and to show the young guys how to be pros. It is up to the young guys to push their way past the vets. If they aren't it's on them.

Go ahead and demonstrate that the Flames have more mediocre vets than other organizations, and that those vets are taking jobs away from young players that deserve them.

[Fan in Exile]

Zadorov really is just in the way. I don't believe he's better defensively, offensively or as good a partner for Gudbrandsen as Valimaki, makes more salary and he definitely has less upside.

I think the Flames were planning on moving Valimaki for Eichel but it's getting to the point where they're souring the relationship and tanking his value. Needs to be fixed ASAP.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

Zadorov really is just in the way. I don't believe he's better defensively, offensively or as good a partner for Gudbrandsen as Valimaki, makes more salary and he definitely has less upside.

I think the Flames were planning on moving Valimaki for Eichel but it's getting to the point where they're souring the relationship and tanking his value. Needs to be fixed ASAP.

There's a pretty good case that he's better defensively as far as positioning, stick, etc go. Offensively they are the same PPG. Valimaki is probably a lot better at outlet passes. But honestly, I haven't had an issue with Zadorov's play for several games.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

Zadorov really is just in the way. I don't believe he's better defensively, offensively or as good a partner for Gudbrandsen as Valimaki, makes more salary and he definitely has less upside.

I think the Flames were planning on moving Valimaki for Eichel but it's getting to the point where they're souring the relationship and tanking his value. Needs to be fixed ASAP.

Hmm who should we trust more? Your opinion? Or the opinion of Darryl Sutter?

Darryl obviously thinks Zadorov is the better player. I trust Darryl.
+ take off the rose colored glasses. Valimaki has been piss poor defensively when he has played.

[Enoch Root]

Zadorov: .204 PPG, career
Valimaki: .198

Small sample size, but Valimaki has been completely unable to demonstrate that he can generate more offensively, at the NHL level.

Not trying to bash on him here, I am just saying that the narrative that he is better offensively is unwarranted, to this point.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Hmm who should we trust more? Your opinion? Or the opinion of Darryl Sutter?

Darryl obviously thinks Zadorov is the better player. I trust Darryl.
+ take off the rose colored glasses. Valimaki has been piss poor defensively when he has played.

Sutter is obviously doing a great job as head coach. That doesn't mean we have to agree with every decision he makes. Valimaki can be better but Zadorov clearly has some serious faults, aside from which he is being paid 3.5m and is heading to free agency.

Regardless of whether Darryl is making the right decision for the roster right now, sitting out a 21-year-old 1st round dman who has #1 upside and missed 2 prime development years due to injury is not good for his development or the long-term best interests of the club.

[Kipper_3434]

If you swap Valimaki and Zadorov, Valimaki is automatically getting pk minutes. Not sure what the numbers say for Valimaki on the PK but, the team stas have been very good this season. It all goes back to Kyllington finding a spot beside Tanev, O.K. gets the sheltered defenceman spot rn .

[Erick Estrada]

https://theathletic.com/2985102/2021...ng-defensemen/

No Flames defensemen placed in top 25 overall puck moving defensemen but Valimaki is rated as the 5th best defenseman in the NHL based on Exit Efficiency so there's something to build off. He's already lost a lot of development time to injury so I find it a little puzzling that the organization is letting him sit in the press box nightly as their 7th defenseman.

[Flamesfan05]

Bad news for Valimaki

Zadorov is actually getting better. He was actually acceptable last night.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Hmm who should we trust more? Your opinion? Or the opinion of Darryl Sutter?

Darryl obviously thinks Zadorov is the better player. I trust Darryl.
+ take off the rose colored glasses. Valimaki has been piss poor defensively when he has played.

I remember this argument was used quite often when Sutter was GM here. To defend Phaneuf trade, signings like LeClerc draft picks like Chucko and so on. Truth be told, Sutter is not exactly brilliant at evaluating players. Yet, he's a hell of a coach, no doubt about it.

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Sorry, but you're reaching, and you're wrong. Zadorov is not a vet that is in someone else's way. Neither is Poolman. Stone is eating popcorn and isn't taking up anyone else's job.

Vets are there to stabilize, and to show the young guys how to be pros. It is up to the young guys to push their way past the vets. If they aren't it's on them.

Go ahead and demonstrate that the Flames have more mediocre vets than other organizations, and that those vets are taking jobs away from young players that deserve them.

The only thing wrong here is your claim that playing low-potential fodder like Zadorov in the NHL or Poolman in the AHL isn't blocking opportunities from guys that have the potential to being more than replacement-level defensemen.

Development is gained by playing and Valimaki isn't learning anything or getting to apply new knowledge by sitting on the bench right now. The Flames are going to feel stupid when Zadorov isn't on the team next year, but Valimaki didn't develop as much as he could have (or at all) because he was sitting on the bench getting "tough love".

Same for the kids down in Stockton like Solovyov who went from averaging 20 minutes a game in the KHL playoffs as a #4 dman to barely playing as the Heat's #7 dman behind Poolman and bunch of veteran AHL/NHL tweeners.

[Flames_Gimp]

I don't like players who complain about ice time, he's essentially saying he doesn't trust the coach.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by boogerz

The only thing wrong here is your claim that playing low-potential fodder like Zadorov in the NHL or Poolman in the AHL isn't blocking opportunities from guys that have the potential to being more than replacement-level defensemen.

Development is gained by playing and Valimaki isn't learning anything or getting to apply new knowledge by sitting on the bench right now. The Flames are going to feel stupid when Zadorov isn't on the team next year, but Valimaki didn't develop as much as he could have (or at all) because he was sitting on the bench getting "tough love".

Same for the kids down in Stockton like Solovyov who went from averaging 20 minutes a game in the KHL playoffs as a #4 dman to barely playing as the Heat's #7 dman behind Poolman and bunch of veteran AHL/NHL tweeners.

You worry about this season right now. Next year is next year's problem.

[Heavy Jack]

If you consider the fact that Kylington spent his fair share of time munching popcorn in the press box I don’t think this is as big of a deal as it’s being made out to be. Obviously Valimaki complaining to a Finnish reporter has given this a bit more legs but at the end of the day Sutter is proving without a shadow of a doubt that he knows what he’s doing. Valimaki needs to be patient as hard as that is after his set backs but he will get his opportunity at some point. Kylington did and hasn’t looked back, this is part of maturing and realizing there is a bigger picture at play if you’re wanting team success throughout the season and into the playoffs.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

If you consider the fact that Kylington spent his fair share of time munching popcorn in the press box I don’t think this is as big of a deal as it’s being made out to be. Obviously Valimaki complaining to a Finnish reporter has given this a bit more legs but at the end of the day Sutter is proving without a shadow of a doubt that he knows what he’s doing. Valimaki needs to be patient as hard as that is after his set backs but he will get his opportunity at some point. Kylington did and hasn’t looked back, this is part of maturing and realizing there is a bigger picture at play if you’re wanting team success throughout the season and into the playoffs.

While that may be, he lost 2 years of development, so it makes no sense to not give him at least playing time at the AHL level.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by Azure

While that may be, he lost 2 years of development, so it makes no sense to not give him at least playing time at the AHL level.

I do agree at this point it would make sense to send him down to Stockton to get some reps in, especially considering Zad has the 3rd pairing spot locked up atm.

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Hmm who should we trust more? Your opinion? Or the opinion of Darryl Sutter?

Darryl obviously thinks Zadorov is the better player. I trust Darryl.
+ take off the rose colored glasses. Valimaki has been piss poor defensively when he has played.

Didn't we already have a pretty long discussion earlier in the thread about how absolute s$%t this opinion is?

Sutter makes mistakes just like any of us. As fans on a message board, what are we here for if not to discuss things like this?