That's fair. I am probably overly sensitive to it because almost my entire family and most of my friends are still extremely devout Christians. My dad still ends every conversation we have with the assurance that he is praying for me and my family. Ugh. I have yet to "come out" to most of my family because I am a blithering coward; but more recently I have been wondering if the reason my dad is so persistent in his prayers—and in letting me know that he is praying—is because he has already figured it out.
Yeah, I have a half-brother who was raised in a devout family. He's an intellectual, a writer and an educator, so perhaps not dissimilar from you in some ways. He became atheist (not saying you are - not sure how you define yourself) in his mid-30s after being very religious. It was a challenge for basically all of his relationships. He was not shy at all about sharing his 'awakening' with everyone in his circle, which made for some awkward dinner parties per his wife. Was a wild ride watching him go through the change.
Definitely don't blame you for not coming out to your family. If it wouldn't do any good, then what's the point?
Yeah, I have a half-brother who was raised in a devout family. He's an intellectual, a writer and an educator, so perhaps not dissimilar from you in some ways. He became atheist (not saying you are - not sure how you define yourself)...
I am still unsure about my self-identity. I am an atheist insofar as I do not believe in god, but I am agnostic as to the possibility of a "god"—whatever that means. It's a matter of evidence, and I have seen none.
I am a methodological naturalist. I can only test truth claims in the real world with the tools at my own disposal. For this reason I cannot be a solipsist: while I concede it is possible that the entire universe is an invention of my own mind somehow, it is not something that I can ever know—even if this is the reality of my own making, it is the reality that I have no choice but to deal with.
I am open to the possibility of a "spiritual" plane of existence, but again, insofar as it continues to exist outside of our grasp of the natural world, I have no way of investigating it.
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Definitely don't blame you for not coming out to your family. If it wouldn't do any good, then what's the point?
I struggle with being dishonest about it. That, and I crave having an open and honest conversation about what I believe and why I believe the things that I do. I am worried that that conversation will not play out like it often does in my imagination.
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Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
I am still unsure about my self-identity. I am an atheist insofar as I do not believe in god, but I am agnostic as to the possibility of a "god"—whatever that means. It's a matter of evidence, and I have seen none.
I am a methodological naturalist. I can only test truth claims in the real world with the tools at my own disposal. For this reason I cannot be a solipsist: while I concede it is possible that the entire universe is an invention of my own mind somehow, it is not something that I can ever know—even if this is the reality of my own making, it is the reality that I have no choice but to deal with.
I am open to the possibility of a "spiritual" plane of existence, but again, insofar as it continues to exist outside of our grasp of the natural world, I have no way of investigating it.
I struggle with being dishonest about it. That, and I crave having an open and honest conversation about what I believe and why I believe the things that I do. I am worried that that conversation will not play out like it often does in my imagination.
As an aside, is it ironic that we are having a discussion about coming out in a thread about Catholicism persecuting the traditional set of people who deal with difficult coming out conversations?
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My Mother does this for us too. I tell her thanks, because at least someone is doing it for us just in case . She usually doesnt like that response.
At least she has stopped asking when she can give my son his baptismal gift.
If the expression is genuine and not with a silent because you are a horrible sinner that needs saving on the end then shouldn’t it be no different then saying I will be thinking about you?
Location: A simple man leading a complicated life....
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Originally Posted by Textcritic
I struggle with being dishonest about it. That, and I crave having an open and honest conversation about what I believe and why I believe the things that I do. I am worried that that conversation will not play out like it often does in my imagination.
Your Dad might be disappointed but I would think that he would still love you regardless of what you believe. He might even be open to an honest discussion about why you don't believe anymore.
Your Dad might be disappointed but I would think that he would still love you regardless of what you believe. He might even be open to an honest discussion about why you don't believe anymore.
I would just be honest with him IMO.
Do you know his dad? Everyone reacts differently. I'm not sure the risk necessarily makes sense, and your advice could lead to disaster.
Your Dad might be disappointed but I would think that he would still love you regardless of what you believe. He might even be open to an honest discussion about why you don't believe anymore.
I would just be honest with him IMO.
To be clear, I am not concerned about my parents ostracizing me for my lack of belief. For me, it is all about how sad this will make them.
I know this conversation is coming; we don't live in the same city, and with COVID we have not seen each other for over a year now. This is not something I could do over the phone.
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Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
To be clear, I am not concerned about my parents ostracizing me for my lack of belief. For me, it is all about how sad this will make them.
I know this conversation is coming; we don't live in the same city, and with COVID we have not seen each other for over a year now. This is not something I could do over the phone.
Ya, not so much with my parent, but with grandparents it's not really a topic I would ever broach, if they brought it up I would pretty much ignore it.. I'm more of the thinking is worst case they sit around worrying about me for no reason, best case there are no real consequences to my life of theirs.
Location: A simple man leading a complicated life....
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Originally Posted by #-3
Ya, not so much with my parent, but with grandparents it's not really a topic I would ever broach, if they brought it up I would pretty much ignore it.. I'm more of the thinking is worst case they sit around worrying about me for no reason, best case there are no real consequences to my life of theirs.
My mother's mother was a devot Christian and hard core believer. When mom married my dad and had us 3 kids, mom would take us all to church every Sunday where she would listen to sermon while we 3 kids spent time in Sunday school. Us kids rebelled when we were in our early teens and stopped going.
It broke my grandmothers heart but that didn't stop her from sending us Bible's and religous literature with hopes we might reconsider. I did go back in my early 20's out of curiousity and left some 16 years later.
I'll say one thing. I grew up christian and believed in God and then became a staunch atheist in my 20's until recently. But man, the more we learn about quantum mechanics the less inclined I feel to be so sure of anything really.
I've definitely moved from atheist to agnostic in recent time and can definitely see that what we think is real and provable may actually not be even close to reality. And it's not even pie in the sky stuff. Mathematically it actually makes more sense than anything.
And thanks so much to Photon for the recommendation on the book "something deeply hidden" by Sean Carroll. He really does a good job of laying out where science is at current state, in laymen terms.
I'll say one thing. I grew up christian and believed in God and then became a staunch atheist in my 20's until recently. But man, the more we learn about quantum mechanics the less inclined I feel to be so sure of anything really.
I've definitely moved from atheist to agnostic in recent time and can definitely see that what we think is real and provable may actually not be even close to reality. And it's not even pie in the sky stuff. Mathematically it actually makes more sense than anything.
Interesting take, I would be interested to hear more about which part of quantum mechanics you hone in on? I know the lack of understanding leaves a lot of space for some sort of mysticism to creep in, but to me those guys are doing the same thing that religions are doing, they are garbing to gaps in our knowledge and spouting certain revealed wisdom as the answer.
To me with the caveat that even the experts don't understand what we know about quantum mechanics, 2 big things really support a naturalistic (non-agnostic) approach. Super-position, the very fact we can' even define where something "is" just shows how much room there is for our naturalistic understanding of the universe to expand before we have to resort to something unexplainable as an explanation. Imaginary Particles, the fact that matter / anti-matter can spontaneously spring into existence removes the needs for a first mover to the universe, it's very reasonable to believe there could have been a natural first movement that just happened.
I know the lack of understanding leaves a lot of space for some sort of mysticism to creep in, but to me those guys are doing the same thing that religions are doing, they are garbing to gaps in our knowledge and spouting certain revealed wisdom as the answer.
Yeah blatant (or purposeful) misunderstanding of QM is what led to the most recent New Age goldrush, starting ~15 years ago with that garbage fire What The @#@! Do We Know? movie.
The more I learn about quantum mechanics the less I know about quantum mechanics.
I like "supernatural agnosticism": I don't know what's going on, but I'm pretty sure its crazier than anything we could ever comprehend or even imagine.
When I think about quantum reality, it leads me down a path of thinking of the fractality of existence. Much like everything, I wonder if the size-scale and time we experience in this universe are all just part of an infinite contniuum. As you descend in size different forces take over and forces of planes above become less relevant, much the same as if you were to increase dramatically in size. Our galaxy is maybe just some electron whizzing around the nucleus of an atom in some higher existence, while the same could perhaps be said of all the atoms within our bodies. Or our universe could be some sort of bubble forming in a 2 dimensional universe that gives us the illusion of 3 dimensions? Anyways.
I have to agree that agnostics seem the wisest path when considering how little we know of the physical reality when we really scrutinize it. I can't see a single being purposely creating and controlling our existences in some sort of fatalist predestination. But beyond that who knows. Perhaps our universe was purposely created, perhaps it's a random accident.
That's not true, you're not a catholic until you're baptized. And then again you have to pass through the sacraments as you age until you are finally confirmed.
Funny enough, I BS'd my way into being Catholic. My mom is Catholic so I was allowed to attend Catholic school on that basis. However when communion time rolled around in grade 2, I wasn't allowed to eat the communion bread because I never got baptized. When it was time to go up for communion at church I had to put my arms across my chest and get the blessing from the priest. I absolutely hated it because it always threw the priest off who would then fumble the bread bowl trying to bless me instead. The entire school would stare at me as if I was some kind of weirdo. So when I moved schools in grade 4 I said F it, I'm 'baptized'. Got that sweet sweet eucharist every time the school went to church and I fit right in. Got confirmed no problem. Is God going to bust me at the pearly gates for lying? Or does eating the body of Christ automatically get me in heaving since technically he's now inside me ? I guess we'll see...
Spoilered my next little rant:
Spoiler!
Although growing up I went to Catholic school, I actually went to Protestant church with my family. I truthfully enjoyed my time at the protestant churches because they actually talked about loving your neighbors. They talked about appreciating what we have and taking care of each other. For the most part they talked the talk and walked the walk when it came to following Jesus' teaching. Great fellowship within those communities I was a part of and lots of loving spirit that genuinely made me want to be a better person. Those protestant churches I went to legit seemed like the kind of church God would actually want to represent him.
The Catholic side, different story. It's nothing but an audience of robots in the stands watching as the priest does the same drone routine every week. Memorize your response lines, learn to sit/stand when told, watch the priest swing his water lantern around and you'll fit right in as a Catholic. School was just as bad. Other than one religion teacher I had, the rest was reading out of the catholic handbook and doing questions and tests. No talk about loving your fellow human or following the teachings of Jesus. Things that are actually in the bible. Catholicism is basically to follow a routine, get your sacraments, get communion, get into heaven.
A long time ago I would ask myself the question what does it mean to be Christian. The Catholic side told me it was about getting baptized and getting your sacraments to purify your soul to get to heaven. The protestant side (and some other denominations) told how it was about accepting Jesus into your heart as your personal lord and savior and trying to emulate his life by being as Christ-like as possible in how you treat others.
Now I'm no rocket scientist, but one of those ways sounds a lot more of what God would want if you're trying to punch your ticket to heaven, versus going to a building simply because it's a part of your Sunday routine. That's not even taking into account for Catholics about how only men can be priests. Or how birth control is a "sin", as is abortion. Being gay is a moral crime. The list of BS goes on and on when you dive into man-made things like sacraments, sainthood, etc . In Catholicism you are supposed to be baptized to get into heaven, without question. I have directly asked that question to various Catholic teachers and the answer was always yes. Without baptism you are not considered Catholic and you don't get into heaven. I know Catholicism is complete bull#### on that basis alone because therefore I am not able to enter without my baptism on record.
FWIW I've read the bible front to back 7 times when I was young. I went to bible camp every summer. I attended and volunteered at Christian summer schools during the summer until I was 19. My Mom ran the church day camps and weekly evening youth group for 20 years. My dad was a Sunday school teacher for a bit. I went to Catholic school growing up, but attended protestant church. My grandparents were Anglican and I went to church with them often. My wife is Orthodox. I've done it all in many different denominations of Christianity, not just Catholicism or Protestant. I'm not a guy simply screaming I hate religion to be edgy on a web forum; I've lived it all and have various reference points from many different Christian perspectives. I can say without hesitation that Catholicism is by far the biggest pile of bologna of them all AINEC. I haven't gone to church regularly since I turned 18 so maybe the other denominations have caught up with their BS lately, I have no idea.
Having moved to Poland last year I've gotten to experience what it's like to live with a hardcore theocracy government that allows the church to decide how things are governed here. It's ####ed up some days.I learned today that Jesus is the official King of Poland
I am still unsure about my self-identity. I am an atheist insofar as I do not believe in god, but I am agnostic as to the possibility of a "god"—whatever that means. It's a matter of evidence, and I have seen none.
Agnostic atheist. You don't believe and see no evidence to prove it, but you aren't asserting that no gods exist and are open to the possibility pending evidence.
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GO FLAMES GO.
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Originally Posted by Azure
Typical dumb take.
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The Catholic side, different story. It's nothing but an audience of robots in the stands watching as the priest does the same drone routine every week.
Quoted this spoilered part: my father was also very much into Star Trek, and as a consequence so am I. I recall loudly asking in Church why we all sounded like the borg so frequently...
Also I had no idea that Jesus was the king of poland. That's pretty wild. More to the point of this thread, Poland is also guilty of extreme prejudice against homosexuality- perhaps not surprising then that they are so tied to the Vatican. Neighboring Germany, on the other hand, even the Clergy have issued a stern rebuke: https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/24/europ...rOOsrG3_X0Hz4c
Could we be seeing the foundations of a new schism?
Last edited by Monahammer; 03-25-2021 at 10:12 AM.
A long time ago I would ask myself the question what does it mean to be Christian. The Catholic side told me it was about getting baptized and getting your sacraments to purify your soul to get to heaven. The protestant side (and some other denominations) told how it was about accepting Jesus into your heart as your personal lord and savior and trying to emulate his life by being as Christ-like as possible in how you treat others.
Now I'm no rocket scientist, but one of those ways sounds a lot more of what God would want if you're trying to punch your ticket to heaven, versus going to a building simply because it's a part of your Sunday routine.
I think this goes back to my earlier description of some of the differences between Jewish sects at the time of Jesus. And this really illustrates the dramatic differences between ancient religion and modern (Western) religion. Even though my own journey out of faith was well underway by the time I was aware of these differences, this is really something that closed the loop for me. The Catholic Church is an ancient church, so it makes good sense that its religion is grounded in rituals and sacraments, which were the essential feature of religious expression in the ancient world. At the time, religion had very little to do with what you thought or believed, and was much more concerned with the performance of rituals in sacred spaces. For the Jews, this sacred space was the Temple in Jerusalem, and the rituals were daily sacrifices.
Jesus's ministry was not a movement to replace the old religion with a different one. Rather, it was part of a broader attempt for lower class and lay people—who had almost nothing to do with the Temple religion—to find greater meaning and significance in religious praxis. While the focus in Christianity was set on the person of Jesus and the fulfilment of Scriptures in his life, death and resurrection, these people could also not just ignore the centrality of Temple observance and ritual in religious life. It is understandable why the Church glommed onto its own set of sacraments, but made them much more accessible than the old religion could.
Since the Enlightenment and the Reformation there has been a much stronger focus on ideas and cognition as the central aspect of Christianity. The expansion of science and reason in no small part also made the performance of rituals appear to be absurd. Christianity shifted from a performative, ritualistic nod to the ancient religions into a new, more cerebral, philosophical and introspective exploration of the ideas espoused within the Bible.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
. She usually doesnt like that response. 
? I guess we'll see...
