[PGT] Flames Lose to Canucks by a lot of goals

[-TC-]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The only thing that matters in this league is results. And the results aren't where they should be, given the talent on the team. Is that on the players? Yes, they have a job to do, and I don't think anyone could be happy with what we are seeing from them right now.

But it is also on the coaches and management. It is their job to make it work. And, without getting into the details of lineups and systems, there are two fundamental things that are pretty indisputable with the team right now, IMO:

1) the current style of play doesn't suit the personnel (other than Lucic and Mangiapane, who would probably look good in any system)
2) other teams are making adjustments to what the Flames are doing, but the Flames don't appear to be making adjustments of their own. The 3rd period line blender last night illustrates that the couching staff is just guessing at this point (so does the handling of Markstrom - my wife looked up and casually made the correct call and she wasn't even paying attention to the game)

I think those issues are pretty clear - we are seeing them both on a nightly basis. And for me, that alone is enough to say that changes have to be made.

This is speculation, but the players look like they don't believe, IMO.

I think I'm there too...

Making changes this season is going to be hard, with travel/covid bull####. But I think we are there.

1. Move Bennett, 960 is right, lose the deal if you have to, move him.
2. Be honest about the character makeup of the room. If that means moving a Monahan or a Giordano, move him. Be ruthless.
3. Be prepared to play the young guys and lose. Effort and commitment matters.
4. Start healthy scratching top guys if the don't play. If Tkachuk is pouting put him in the rafters for a game or five.

Changes have to happen. Geoff, his team, and Tre should be on a call this AM building a plan.

This series, and especially last night, demand an immediate response.

Saturday night has the potential to be a ####ing train wreck. I'm seriously considering not even turning the game on. I don't want to watch the Oilers put up an 8 or 9 on the Flames, and that's realistic at this point.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by -TC-

I think I'm there too...

Making changes this season is going to be hard, with travel/covid bull####. But I think we are there.

1. Move Bennett, 960 is right, lose the deal if you have to, move him.
2. Be honest about the character makeup of the room. If that means moving a Monahan or a Giordano, move him. Be ruthless.
3. Be prepared to play the young guys and lose. Effort and commitment matters.
4. Start healthy scratching top guys if the don't play. If Tkachuk is pouting put him in the rafters for a game or five.

Changes have to happen. Geoff, his team, and Tre should be on a call this AM building a plan.

This series, and especially last night, demand an immediate response.

Saturday night has the potential to be a ####ing train wreck. I'm seriously considering not even turning the game on. I don't want to watch the Oilers put up an 8 or 9 on the Flames, and that's realistic at this point.

The last thing you want is Treliving making those moves. Could set the franchise back half a decade. Get through the year and identify who you want making those moves or pull a Pittsburgh and find the right guy to make those moves this year. Asking Brad to blow up the team he spent 7 years making and expecting a different result is not going to be a successful approach IMO.

[CsInMyBlood]

Sad thing is I think we were playing our best hockey in awhile in the second period. Every line was having success in the Canucks zone. They couldnt get it out at their blue line multiple times. We score and then get 2 quick ones pumped into our net.

I have to agree with others that the Lindholm at center is throwing our lines into disarray everywhere, including on that line.

I dont think it's hard to tell that Matthew Tkachuk is missing Backlund in many ways. You have to remember Backlund has been his center since he came into the league. It's obvious his no look plays would have been right to where Backlund goes. Backlund also allows Tkachuk to stay down low where he is best, then covers if the puck is turned over. It's like Matthew now has to think where in the past he just played.

Ward put Tkachuk-Backlund-Nordstrom together and they had 2 shifts where I thought the 3M was out there. Of course that didnt last. We all know this is where Mangiapaine should also be. We know this line clicks and flows. Can play against the top lines of the other teams and still be effective on offense.

In one game Ritchie looked better than Leivo/Bennett/Simon ever did on the Gaudreau line. Which is low bar for sure. That's just not sustainable for them. Lindholm should be back on that line. Gives us a potent threat of offense with Elias as added defensive presence. I bet they wouldnt get hemmed in their zone as much.

Leaves Lucic-Bennett-Dube as our 3rd. Weve seen it be effective.

I know I'm not saying anything new. I'm not on the fire the coach narrative bandwagon but it does seem to me the coaching staff is holding onto "their" big smart original coaching decision to play Lindholm at center even though it is stunting our lineup throughout.

Lindholm at center has worked, especially in the beginning of the season but too many times that line has been basically invisible. Which is a big problem because we need to be able to lean on Tkachuk and Lindholm for offense.

TLDR: I'm convinced it's time to end the Lindholm at center experiment. If you're just going to blend the lines like you have, why not change it up to what has been proven effective in the past.

[Iggy_12]

Spot on assessment, I figured in a pandemic with nothing to do, flames games would be my release from reality but I don't even get excited for games now let alone watch them all. I had season tickets from 1995-current I not only never missed a game I would go out of my way to make sure i was free to watch on game nights. Now, meh

[Monahammer]

As much as I do think the coaching decisions have been totally inexcusable, there also does seem like there might be something else at play here.

Given the rumors about telling tkachuk to settle down, less people defending eachother on the ice, the notions that certain players are refusing to play in certain positions (maybe with certain other players?)
It just reeks of internal discord.
Find the people who are causing it and trade them away. Whoever they are, it doesnt matter. Trade them for the best deal you can find and walk away.

We need firm in room leadership and buy in from the players side as well.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

The last thing you want is Treliving making those moves. Could set the franchise back half a decade. Get through the year and identify who you want making those moves or pull a Pittsburgh and find the right guy to make those moves this year. Asking Brad to blow up the team he spent 7 years making and expecting a different result is not going to be a successful approach IMO.

Set them back to what? from what? Watching the team this year, and the last few years really, they are not close to accomplishing anything. I guess a coaching change should be the first move.

[Mattman]

I want to apologize for my negativity in the last PGT. I realize that what I said irked quite a few fans here, and my goal was not to troll, or piss off people. I just want to clarify why I posted it because I feel like it's the focal point of some posters being at each others throats.

I don't want it. False hope to our management that this is a good team.

To be clear I would never cheer for the Flames to lose, but it's the big picture concept that if the management thinks we can squeak by with half the team showing up (and the coach nowhere to be found) then what's the point of celebrating if the next game could be worse. I just didn't want to celebrate a win where the Flames clearly didn't give 100%. All I'm saying is if the Flames biffed that 4-3 win on Monday, and lost it in overtime it leads back to the same conversation that there is something seriously wrong with the compete level of this team.

This type of line management, inconsistency from one game to the next, and overall mediocrity from the Flames over these last 6 years is why. No one is leading this team from the management to the players, and something's got to give.

I'm sorry, but it's just frustrating to watch as a die-hard fan of the Flames.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Set them back to what? from what? Watching the team this year, and the last few years really, they are not close to accomplishing anything. I guess a coaching change should be the first move.

That is a fair point, it would not necessarily be a case of setting them back as they have not achieved anything over the past 7 years. It is more ensuring that they will not move forward if Treliving makes the moves. If you let Brad make the moves it will result in more of the same, a different set of eyes might actually produce a positive result. Coaching should be the first move, but again I would prefer a fan poll over Brad making that decision.a new coach is also a decision that Brad should make.

[Coach]

Not going out and getting a seasoned coach with some gravitas behind them when we had the chance (after the Peters firing) is Treliving's biggest error. I've been a big fan of his overall, and think player-wise, he's built a very strong team. But I also think there's an arrogance to trying to find a "diamond in the rough" type coach. Which can happen, and certainly those coaches have become premiere names themselves. I also obviously agree that the players are proffessionals and shouldn't need a coach to get them up for games.

But I liken it to making a movie. You can have a great script and great performers, but if you put those performers in the hands of an unknown director (even if that unknown is great), they may not have the respect for the director's choices, or trust something that seems different than what you're used to. So a big player (lets call him Leo) might just go about doing things they think is right whereas if you had Scorsese at the helm, he'd do anything the guy says.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by 442scotty

Maybe it will take back to back embarrassing losses to the Oilers to see some changes made. If that won’t do it I don’t know what will.

Oiler fan here. The Oilers are not good enough to embarrass anyone.
a just ok team with .890 goaltending, making them quite below average.

the Oilers are just what the flames need. I would be tickled pink if the Oilers managed a split.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

Oiler fan here. The Oilers are not good enough to embarrass anyone.
a just ok team with .890 goaltending, making them quite below average.

the Oilers are just what the flames need. I would be tickled pink if the Oilers managed a split.

Look, guys! A fan of another team! Lets get him!

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Look, guys! A fan of another team! Lets get him!

[Coach]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

Oiler fan here. The Oilers are not good enough to embarrass anyone.
a just ok team with .890 goaltending, making them quite below average.

the Oilers are just what the flames need. I would be tickled pink if the Oilers managed a split.

What is this? Reason? From an Oilers fan?


You need more David Staples in your life.

[TheIronMaiden]

I think its time to see what some of our AHL players can do.
The season is far from lost, the Flames are still in the same grouping they were before.
But it's clear that guys like Rittchie, Simon and Levio bring very little to a game. It isn't exactly their fault the Flames are struggling, I pin that more on Tkachuk than any other single player, but somethings gotta give.

[Burning Beard]

Time to trade Bennett. Get whatever you can for him.

If Ward can't fix the system find someone who can.

Shake up the dang core. Years of the same old same old tells us this leadership group is rotten.

Make some changes now and you might have a shot this season. Ride or die with this team and its the same old blah.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Coach

Not going out and getting a seasoned coach with some gravitas behind them when we had the chance (after the Peters firing) is Treliving's biggest error. I've been a big fan of his overall, and think player-wise, he's built a very strong team. But I also think there's an arrogance to trying to find a "diamond in the rough" type coach. Which can happen, and certainly those coaches have become premiere names themselves. I also obviously agree that the players are proffessionals and shouldn't need a coach to get them up for games.

But I liken it to making a movie. You can have a great script and great performers, but if you put those performers in the hands of an unknown director (even if that unknown is great), they may not have the respect for the director's choices, or trust something that seems different than what you're used to. So a big player (lets call him Leo) might just go about doing things they think is right whereas if you had Scorsese at the helm, he'd do anything the guy says.

My biggest issue with diamond in the rough factor is the "inexperience", especially if the coach does not have a winning pedigree. If your a new coach your going to have trial an error; A lot of that can be avoided by hiring the right guy for the job. Instead we are wasting away opportunities with the players, we have and may end up starting over again because we didn't get the "director" right.

Jiri made a good point about the Flames coming out of the rebuild too soon and again I think this due to some inexperience. We started adding some veteran players, this may have been more of a hinderance and added stress to our salary structure. Thus setting us back in the rebuild. I think Treliving has done some excellent work on the team but some of these revolving issues like "keeping players who were not producing, such as Neal and Brouwer" Set us back in wins, on the ice, and just a bad example for the players giving an honest effort on the ice.

I like Brad Treliving but I think he needs to decide what kind of a team he wants to build and either find a coach that matches the team, or build to suit.

My opinion, we still have the wrong coach for this group of players.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by -TC-

Saturday night has the potential to be a ####ing train wreck. I'm seriously considering not even turning the game on. I don't want to watch the Oilers put up an 8 or 9 on the Flames, and that's realistic at this point.

This is what I fear....I might watch the first bit, and if they start to go south quickly, I'll just quit and watch....something else. Or read a good book. Or sit down with a decent bottle of scotch.

Maybe I'll start with the last one first. It's how the Flames play. Drunk.

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by Mattman

I want to apologize for my negativity in the last PGT. I realize that what I said irked quite a few fans here, and my goal was not to troll, or piss off people. I just want to clarify why I posted it because I feel like it's the focal point of some posters being at each others throats.



To be clear I would never cheer for the Flames to lose, but it's the big picture concept that if the management thinks we can squeak by with half the team showing up (and the coach nowhere to be found) then what's the point of celebrating if the next game could be worse. I just didn't want to celebrate a win where the Flames clearly didn't give 100%. All I'm saying is if the Flames biffed that 4-3 win on Monday, and lost it in overtime it leads back to the same conversation that there is something seriously wrong with the compete level of this team.

This type of line management, inconsistency from one game to the next, and overall mediocrity from the Flames over these last 6 years is why. No one is leading this team from the management to the players, and something's got to give.

I'm sorry, but it's just frustrating to watch as a die-hard fan of the Flames.

I hear you. I think with the pandemic everyone's lives have been derailed in some way or other. Could be socially, career, health, but everyone's.
I think with Flames hockey for me, I was hoping for some anchor of something going well. But it just isn't and that makes it just another thing that is out of our control.
Probably that's partly why I shout about coaching from the rafters, it's something tangible. However I realize there's going to be no silver bullet for success with this mess the team is in.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Look, guys! A fan of another team! Lets get him!

Come on... we're soft as butter on you

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Look, guys! A fan of another team! Lets get him!

Flames are 4-2 vs.the Canucks and you show up after 2 of the games