Garbage bag day

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I'd like to see something like this to start next year:

Tkachuk - Monahan - Neal

I'll take "Lines Slower Than Molasses" for 500, Alex

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Red

A lot of talk about speed. I don't see it.
How many goals did the Aves score off the rush when the lead guy blew past coverage?
1. - Mac, OT GM2

Most goals were scored from between the dots or around the crease. Game 3 had a couple of odd man rush goals. But not really fast plays if you rewatch them.

The SH goal gm 2 was a breakaway caused by a dumb play, not speed.

The Flames are not a slow team. Colorado is not that fast of a team, they have a fast top line. But we have fast D too. Their best D were Cole and Zadorov. Stay at home tough Dmen.

Go figure.

It's not quite that simple.

If dmen get beat wide even without a shot on goal, they are tentative and back in more the next time.

The Flames were backing in like crazy and it created issues with the gaps and transitions they used all season to counter and pile up production.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's not quite that simple.

If dmen get beat wide even without a shot on goal, they are tentative and back in more the next time.

The Flames were backing in like crazy and it created issues with the gaps and transitions they used all season to counter and pile up production.

True but that was caused by weak play in the neutral zone. We allowed them to fly in to our zone.
Our guys were getting rubbed and knocked off stride resulting in turning puck over and attacking with no speed.
I guess a case can be made for speed, toughness, grit, effort and skill. But I look at the entire season and the concensus was that the team was:
Small fast skill team with great D and a crappy G.

So what happened to that team?

Did they forget how to play in the playoffs or did they get dominated with tight checking and physical play?

I can see a case of coaching being the difference. But not to that extent. To me they just got boxed out while our defensive game was too soft to stop the attack. Aves were in Smiths kitchen way too much.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by FiveSeven

Problem is simple with Mony. Hes a one dimensional sniper. He scores from the slot and that's it, mostly. In playoffs, that slot is protected 10x the amount then the regular season. You need that explosive speed to break away in those times, not just slowly stutter stepping around hoping a skater puck watches and gives him a tiny bit of room. I dont know what he needs to do but its pretty obvious why he doesnt score much in the playoffs.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Monny needs to develop a meanstreak. He's a centerman with the body of a power forward, but the disposition of a perimeter playmaker. He's literally Danny Briere in Ryan Getzlaf's body. Big, slow and tough with a lethal shot and elite scoring instincts, but a pacifist who stays between the dots, won't hit and tries to not get hit.

First half of the season is when perimeter players prosper.
Second half of the season and playoffs is when you get your points in the trenches.

You gotta be mean to thrive in the trenches. I don't mean "mean" like Pronger stepping on a guys leg with his skate. I mean "mean" like giving it back to the people who try to take your ice away, instead of either just letting them take it or not even trying to claim it in the first place.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I'll take "Lines Slower Than Molasses" for 500, Alex

I suppose. But who else are you going to play Tkachuk and Monahan with? It seems that every possible line combination involving those two players is "slow," unless you keep Monahan with Gaudreau and stick Tkachuk with the new centre. But I thought we wanted to see a shakeup from the first line?

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Monny needs to develop a meanstreak. He's a centerman with the body of a power forward, but the disposition of a perimeter playmaker. He's literally Danny Briere in Ryan Getzlaf's body. Big, slow and tough with a lethal shot and elite scoring instincts, but a pacifist who stays between the dots, won't hit and tries to not get hit.

First half of the season is when perimeter players prosper.
Second half of the season and playoffs is when you get your points in the trenches.

You gotta be mean to thrive in the trenches. I don't mean "mean" like Pronger stepping on a guys leg with his skate. I mean "mean" like giving it back to the people who try to take your ice away, instead of either just letting them take it or not even trying to claim it in the first place.

I think Monahan needs to study Steve Yzerman. Probably the best and most successful player with Monahan's temperament.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Red

A lot of talk about speed. I don't see it.

...

The Flames are not a slow team. Colorado is not that fast of a team, they have a fast top line.

Flames are a pretty slow team at forward. Let's review our top 9


Centre
Monahan - Probably the slowest "1C" in the NHL, or right there with Joe Pavelski. His footspeed causes issues with weak backchecking, forechecking, breaking the other team's cycle, and carrying the puck through the middle of the ice.

Backlund - Above average skater, but will always be outclassed speedwise trying to check McDavid, MacKinnon types to the point where he was going 100% and his stamina became an issue and he faded late into tight games. Doesn't have the explosive speed through the middle needed to generate much offensively through tight checking. Not a problem if he's your second-best C (a la Soderberg in COL) but in reality he's probably our best C which IS a problem.

Jankowski - Not very quick at all. Outclassed by Colorado's speed, no getting around it.

Left Wing

Gaudreau - He's a good and deceptive skater, but when push comes to shove and he gets any sort of advantage in open ice he usually gets caught by a good backchecker because his straight line speed is nothing to write home about.

Tkachuk - Fast is not a word I would use to describe him. This hurt us against with him in a checking role vs the Avs' top players as he couldn't win any races to loose pucks or play the passing lanes usefully.

Bennett - Much like Gaudreau he's a good skater with fine edgework but he too doesn't have high-end straight line speed he used to have before he put on the muscle he did. That said his addition to the Gaudreau line resulted in the only time that line played with anything resembling speed, because he was playing fast and efficiently. His speed is also limited by the wing position as he rarely has much open ice to wind up and go the way that makes him most effective.

Right Wing
Lindholm - Decent skater, but like Bennett the wing position limits his speed and he doesn't really have much explosiveness.

Frolik - See Lindholm/Bennett, but Frolik does seem to have a better feel for how to use his speed as a winger, probably because he is a natural winger.

Neal - Lead-footed, no other description necessary.


On defense, yes by the end of the series Giordano, Brodie, and Valimaki all played with speed. Andersson did too, though physical foot speed isn't a strength he was playing fast outside of one pretty bad sequence in game 5.

But still - even one of our better skaters, Noah Hanifin looked like he was skating in concrete during that series as he wasn't mentally playing with anything resembling pace, nor was his partner Hamonic. That pair's lack of pace was an absolute momentum killer. This was one of the knocks on Hanifin by Hurricanes fans a year ago and it culminated in our second pair being easier to get in on than a prostitute in Amsterdam.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I suppose. But who else are you going to play Tkachuk and Monahan with? It seems that every possible line combination involving those two players is "slow," unless you keep Monahan with Gaudreau and stick Tkachuk with the new centre. But I thought we wanted to see a shakeup from the first line?

I don't know what the answer is. I do know you need more speed down the middle than Monahan can provide, and I do know Tkachuk shouldn't be in a checking line role. If I had to throw an opinion out there it would be to spread the top guys across the top three lines

Monahan - Backlund - Mangiapane to take on other team's top lines. Monahan may not be as fast as we want him to be at center, but he does seem quicker than Tkachuk does and has some defensive instincts that could work in this role. And by being able to play centre it gives Backlund a switch option for if he gets tired on a shift, which I've seen happen in the past when he's played with Bennett.

Gaudreau - Lindholm - Dube as a primary scoring line.

Tkachuk - Bennett - Czarnik as a secondary scoring line

Neal - Ryan - Lazar as your fourth line. I think there's some balance there. Ideally Neal is gone and you can get someone like Quine or Frolik in there

[Geeoff]

I really hope Dubé takes the jump next year. His speed and playmaking abilities would look nice in the top 6. He's gonna have to be about twice as good but at his age this is plausible.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I suppose. But who else are you going to play Tkachuk and Monahan with? It seems that every possible line combination involving those two players is "slow," unless you keep Monahan with Gaudreau and stick Tkachuk with the new centre. But I thought we wanted to see a shakeup from the first line?

Well certinaly not that combo.

Tkachuk is creative and can make plays in his zone and once he's in the opposing zone, but can't skate fast.

Monahan is great at finishing plays in the opposing zone but doesn't really play defense and can't skate fast

Neal can (or used to) finish plays with great snipes, but can't skate fast and literally doesn't do anything in the defensive zone.



This would be an unmitigated disaster having that trio together in the current NHL where you live and die by speed. Not a single one of them could regular carry the puck up the ice with speed and only one who contributes on defense.

[Stanley]

I think we lack above average/great/elite skaters. Gaudreau, Ryan, Backs, Mange, Maki, Brodie, they're all great, the rest are either slow or below average skaters. Tkachuk gets away with it with his IQ/positioning/skill. Mony has gotten away with it with his score-from-the-slot snipes. But overall, I think we're an average skating team which in today's NHL is meh.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I don't know what the answer is. I do know you need more speed down the middle than Monahan can provide, and I do know Tkachuk shouldn't be in a checking line role. If I had to throw an opinion out there it would be to spread the top guys across the top three lines

Monahan - Backlund - Mangiapane to take on other team's top lines. Monahan may not be as fast as we want him to be at center, but he does seem quicker than Tkachuk does and has some defensive instincts that could work in this role. And by being able to play centre it gives Backlund a switch option for if he gets tired on a shift, which I've seen happen in the past when he's played with Bennett.

Gaudreau - Lindholm - Dube as a primary scoring line.

Tkachuk - Bennett - Czarnik as a secondary scoring line

Neal - Ryan - Lazar as your fourth line. I think there's some balance there. Ideally Neal is gone and you can get someone like Quine or Frolik in there

That's a pretty small lineup. I don't just mean size wise...they also played small in the post season. None of Gaudreau, Dube, or Czarnik have shown they can win a battle in the corner, especially in the playoffs. The biggest problem, imho, is that the Flames couldn't get to the net against the Avs.

Mangiapane did well in the regular season, on the fourth line playing against other teams 5 and 6 D for the most part. Not sure how he does against the best players in the league.

[Toonage]

Also the Flames aren't bringing Lazar back. He done.

Re: the item below me

1. Dallas would have killed us. Arizona & Minnesota would have been tough but I think winnable. I also thought Colorado was winnable so what do I know.
2. The team would have kept moving their feet more. Smith was great but the need to be great ended up being a result of how the team plays in front of him.
3. Great regular season team that should probably bulk up on trade deadline day next year

[TheRealPepman]

There are a few questions that are bothering me for quite some time since the series ended:

1. How would the the Flames have fared in the playoffs if the playoff opponent was Dallas, Arizona, or Minnesota instead of Colorado?
3. What if we had Rittich starting instead of Smith?
4. Are we ahead of time by icing a lineup that doesn't have enough toughness for playoff hockey?

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by Cole436

I think frustrations around Monahan are valid. He's a very smart, very young player, but he doesn't seem to be growing his game to be a #1 centre. I don't see any progress in his game from last year to now, and that worries me.

What he does well, he does better than most in the league. He has a deadly shot in tight and can finish plays with the best of the best. But I don't see a progression in the areas he's weak in, which is playing the body and possession of the puck. I've rarely seen him drive possession into the zone, or make a play off the rush. That seems to be exclusively Gaudreau's role on the line and that makes me worried about the progression of his game in the likely chance that him and Johnny won't be linemates forever, (or even in the near future if Bennett becomes the player we hope he'll be).

The larger red flag I see with Monahan is his lack of physicality on the puck and the boards. He has a very active stick and he plays hard, but he's a big kid and he should be outmuscling opponents and I've been pulling my hair out too many times watching him shrug off the contact and seeing the play go past him.

I really like Monahan and I think he'll be a big part of the Flames going forward, but their success is going to rely on how he addresses some important holes in his game.

I posted this in December of 2015. It makes me feel concerned that I feel this could have been written word for word after his post-season play. 2019-20 looks like the make or break year for Monahan with the Flames. If he doesn't respond in a big way then I believe his role in the organization needs to be rethought.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by TheRealPepman

There are a few questions that are bothering me for quite some time since the series ended:

1. How would the the Flames have fared in the playoffs if the playoff opponent was Dallas, Arizona, or Minnesota instead of Colorado?
3. What if we had Rittich starting instead of Smith?
4. Are we ahead of time by icing a lineup that doesn't have enough toughness for playoff hockey?

I don't think the loss had anything to do with toughness. We let the Avs gather speed right from their own zone across the neutral zone, with barely a hint of a forecheck. By the time they hit our zone, they were at full speed and blew by the Flames in the D zone.

Rittich wouldn't have helped. Smith was out of his mind but the rest of the team couldn't keep up because they were too passive on the puck.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Cole436

I posted this in December of 2015. It makes me feel concerned that I feel this could have been written word for word after his post-season play. 2019-20 looks like the make or break year for Monahan with the Flames. If he doesn't respond in a big way then I believe his role in the organization needs to be rethought.

I still think he would be a good RW, but the issue is that you are really just swapping Monahan and Lindholm and I don't think Lindholm is a high end #1C either.



That is why I like Hayes on the team, gives you multiple options to try out at C and RW.

[TheScorpion]

So, basically what I'm seeing in here is that almost every projected lineup is either "too small" or "too slow."

It seems that the answer needs to come from outside and it needs to address both of those issues.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

The 'won no cups' part is trash, so it's not really the sins of the Father.
Keith always has always been and remains a significant influence in his sons lives, and rightfully so.
And Keith never backed down once during contract negotiations. He signed an offer sheet early in career and later held out with 2 years left on his contract.
With him as adviser, I expect Matthew will negotiate hard.
For example, I expect Matthew would not have signed the deal Gaudreau did, that avoided his potential holdout. But that's only my opinion.
It's not hard to separate the business side from the hockey side, imo, and I expect to have to do this with Tkachuk, maybe sooner than later. Had to with Iginla as well, who held out once and threatened to a second time - none of which diminished him in my eyes.
Not suggesting Tkachuk will be a hold out. Just saying he will need to be paid lots.

I agree, but Devil's Advocate: If I was to match Dad's at a negotiating table, I'm taking Team Treliving.

[Azhouse]

Dads