[Rumour] UPD: Canes will try to trade Adam Fox after he indicates he will not sign with them

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I don't know about that, as these college free agents are a factor in driving up salaries which is what the PA wants.

Schultz, Vessey, DeKeyser, those guys all drove up the price for players in their age bracket.

No they didn't. Rookie salary cap, they got the same money no matter where they signed.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I don't know about that, as these college free agents are a factor in driving up salaries which is what the PA wants.

Schultz, Vessey, DeKeyser, those guys all drove up the price for players in their age bracket.

How exactly? Just asking.

Is it that Vessey & DeKeyser both signed max value 2 yr ELCs? Vessey got max bonuses. Did the NCAA guys who didn't go UFA sign higher value contracts?

We are also talking about what? 1 or 2 guys a year?

NHL "we'll slice escrow by 1% in exchange for a better NCAA deal" does the NHLPA say no? (not that this will ever happen)

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by burnitdown

...and of course, foregoing perhaps a few million dollars by extending your amateur career an extra couple years.

I guess you have to weigh that against the long-term benefits of a Harvard education.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I don't know about that, as these college free agents are a factor in driving up salaries which is what the PA wants.

Schultz, Vessey, DeKeyser, those guys all drove up the price for players in their age bracket.

Originally Posted by Beatle17

No they didn't. Rookie salary cap, they got the same money no matter where they signed.

If anything, one would think the NHLPA would be most interested in ensuring that players rights remain with their drafting team, since this is the best course to signing their ELCs earlier, thus reaching free agency sooner and driving more salaries upward.

For example, Gaudreau signed his ELC in 2014 with the incentive that he would burn a full year of it in a single game, and became a RFA after just two full seasons in 2016. Had he opted to play four years at BC and chosen his destination he would have not have been eligible to sign a second contract until last summer—a full two years behind where he is now.

[burnitdown]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

If anything, one would think the NHLPA would be most interested in ensuring that players rights remain with their drafting team, since this is the best course to signing their ELCs earlier, thus reaching free agency sooner and driving more salaries upward.

For example, Gaudreau signed his ELC in 2014 with the incentive that he would burn a full year of it in a single game, and became a RFA after just two full seasons in 2016. Had he opted to play four years at BC and chosen his destination he would have not have been eligible to sign a second contract until last summer—a full two years behind where he is now.

Perhaps this makes sense for the relatively small group of star players looking to sign record deals. But the NHLPA represents the entire league of players...when star players earn more with a salary cap in place, it just means the average and borderline players make closer to league minimum.

The NHLPA should be concerned with increasing league revenue, as that increases the pot for salaries. I'm not sure these rare instances affect things from the player side much, so I doubt the NHLPA views it as a major issue. They know teams/fans hate it though, so I'm sure they'll want to get something out of giving it up.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

If anything, one would think the NHLPA would be most interested in ensuring that players rights remain with their drafting team, since this is the best course to signing their ELCs earlier, thus reaching free agency sooner and driving more salaries upward.

For example, Gaudreau signed his ELC in 2014 with the incentive that he would burn a full year of it in a single game, and became a RFA after just two full seasons in 2016. Had he opted to play four years at BC and chosen his destination he would have not have been eligible to sign a second contract until last summer—a full two years behind where he is now.

You might be right.

Let's compare dekeyser and gaudreau as they signed about a year apart.

DeKeyser signed with the team of his choosing at age 23.
Gaudreau signed with the team that drafted him at age 21.

Dekeyser signed a 2 x 1.3 aav ELC, which represented 1.44% of the cap at the time.
Gaudreau signed a 3 x 1.85 aav ELC, which represented 1.34% of the cap.

Both players burned a year of their deals by signing late in the season.

So already, even though cash is different because of the escalating cap, Dekeyser is making a larger share of the pie.

Had Gaudreau signed later, it would've delayed his second contract in terms of timing, but arguably the amount he would sign for in his latest contract would be significantly more than he is paid now.

I believe if the player is willing to take even more risk and sign a second contract that brings them to UFA qualification, their earning potential is even higher.

So while Gaudreau is younger and has earned more money at this point, DeKeyser has done well for himself considering the spread in career earnings at this point is less than 2 million and DeKeyser isn't close to being in Gaudreau's league. DeKeyser is also doing it in his hometown where he wanted to play.

These College UFAs aren't getting something for free. They are giving up opportunity cost for more control.

Personally, I like that teams have to actually court their players and give them reasons to sign other than just owning their rights.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

You might be right.

Let's compare dekeyser and gaudreau as they signed about a year apart.

DeKeyser signed with the team of his choosing at age 23.
Gaudreau signed with the team that drafted him at age 21.

Dekeyser signed a 2 x 1.3 aav ELC, which represented 1.44% of the cap at the time.
Gaudreau signed a 3 x 1.85 aav ELC, which represented 1.34% of the cap.

Both players burned a year of their deals by signing late in the season.

So already, even though cash is different because of the escalating cap, Dekeyser is making a larger share of the pie.

Had Gaudreau signed later, it would've delayed his second contract in terms of timing, but arguably the amount he would sign for in his latest contract would be significantly more than he is paid now.

I believe if the player is willing to take even more risk and sign a second contract that brings them to UFA qualification, their earning potential is even higher.

So while Gaudreau is younger and has earned more money at this point, DeKeyser has done well for himself considering the spread in career earnings at this point is less than 2 million and DeKeyser isn't close to being in Gaudreau's league. DeKeyser is also doing it in his hometown where he wanted to play.

These College UFAs aren't getting something for free. They are giving up opportunity cost for more control.

Personally, I like that teams have to actually court their players and give them reasons to sign other than just owning their rights.

ELC money is set in the CBA. If DeKeyser got a bigger chunk of the cap, its because the rules were set that way, not a negotiating move. The Flames were worried Gaudreau would go the same route so would have offered him everything they could to get him to sign. You can negotiate bonuses, but they both got the most allowed under the CBA for an ELC as a salary.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

ELC money is set in the CBA. If DeKeyser got a bigger chunk of the cap, its because the rules were set that way, not a negotiating move. The Flames were worried Gaudreau would go the same route so would have offered him everything they could to get him to sign. You can negotiate bonuses, but they both got the most allowed under the CBA for an ELC as a salary.

I don't believe this its true. As far as I know all the same bonuses are all pre-scheduled into each ELC.

[Flash Walken]

Goddamnit, where are getbak or opendoor when you need them?

[sureLoss]

ELCs have been capped out at $925k base salary for a long time and that includes a maximum of a 10% signing bonus.

Performance bonuses are in ELCs are capped at $850k for Schedule A and $2million for Schedule B.
The metrics for achieving ELC performance bonuses are set by the CBA and are very difficult to achieve. For example Schedule B bonuses are usually for winning a trophy like the Hart, Richard, etc., top ten in goals, assists, points league wide and being named to 1st or 2nd all star teams. Schedule A bonuses are typically given to metrics associated with top 6 forwards, top 4 d-men, like a forward scoring 20 goals.

There is no set standard for ELC compensation. Base salary and bonuses can range from league minimum to the aforementioned max on a player by player basis.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I don't believe this its true. As far as I know all the same bonuses are all pre-scheduled into each ELC.

You can still negotiate which bonuses (if any) are included on an ELC. There are maximums, but not minimums. Also, not every player gets the maximum base salary on their ELC ... although, with these sought-after college kids, most do.


Spencer Foo is a good example. He signed a maximum $925,000 AAV contract with the maximum 10% signing bonus. He also has the maximum $850,000 in Schedule A performance bonuses. He was a sought-after UFA, so he was able to maximize his potential return.


Jon Gillies received the maximum base salary, but no performance bonuses. Jankowski had the maximum base salary and some (but not maximum) performance bonuses.

If they had held-out for UFA status, they may have been able to max out everything, but at the end of the day, they didn't earn any of those potential bonuses anyway, so it wouldn't have mattered.


Then, of course, there are the guys like Garnet Hathaway who aren't having teams fighting over them who have to settle for an AHL contract after graduation, hoping to earn an NHL deal later. When they do get their NHL deal, it isn't anywhere close to the maximums allowed under the CBA.

[mrdonkey]

It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if these blue chip college guys started not only picking their destinations and requesting a “burn year” to bring them closer to RFA negotiations, but also refused within those negotiations to sign a contract for any longer than a couple of years. Gaudreau’s burn year probably cost him a good $2 million or more per season on a long-term deal, and you can bet other guys took notice and will want their share of the pie.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if these blue chip college guys started not only picking their destinations and requesting a “burn year” to bring them closer to RFA negotiations, but also refused within those negotiations to sign a contract for any longer than a couple of years. Gaudreau’s burn year probably cost him a good $2 million or more per season on a long-term deal, and you can bet other guys took notice and will want their share of the pie.

The length of the contract is determined by the age they sign.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if these blue chip college guys started not only picking their destinations and requesting a “burn year” to bring them closer to RFA negotiations, but also refused within those negotiations to sign a contract for any longer than a couple of years. Gaudreau’s burn year probably cost him a good $2 million or more per season on a long-term deal, and you can bet other guys took notice and will want their share of the pie.

They don't have a say in the matter in terms of contract length. ELC lengths are determined by the age of the player on September 15 in the calendar year he signs the contract.

The only choice Gaudreau had was not to burn the year.

[mrdonkey]

What I mean is when they reach RFA status after their ELC expires, which as far as I know is handled and governed by the same rules as other RFA negotiations. But I could be wrong.

[sureLoss]

Remember that even getting the max rookie deals with max bonuses doesn't necessarily mean a big pay day either.

The Flames gave Corban Knight max base salary, max signing bonuses, and max performance bonuses allowed by the CBA.

The contract was worth potentially $7.5 million over 2 years with all the bonuses.

The contract ended with him earning mostly AHL salary, $180k in signing bonuses, and however long he was on the NHL roster for 9 games.

[868904]

I think college players who play the full four years but elect to not sign with their drafting team should go back into the draft; however, when they sign their ELC with the new team that drafts them, it's not a 3 year, but a 1 year.

This makes it more similar to the CHL guys who have to go back into the draft if they aren't signed, but also gives the college guys a bit of an advantage on the contract escalation.

Gets rid of the entitled-pick-where-I-want-to-play thinking but also gives some options to the player. It's the NHL, be grateful to be drafted. Unless of course this is Edmonton, in which case, all drafted players should have the option of going UFA after their draft plus 1 year.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

LeBrun on insider trading said he doesn't think Carolina will accept a 2nd for Fox in their trade talks with the Rangers. They maybe eyeing the Jets 1st (that the Rangers acquired for Hayes).

If they get a first rounder for Fox that would be something. And pretty much discount the notion that Treliving just threw him into the trade.

[jlh2640]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

If they get a first rounder for Fox that would be something. And pretty much discount the notion that Treliving just threw him into the trade.

He will not fetch a 1st rounder

[mrdonkey]

I’m not sure they will even get the Tom Erixon return. The Rangers can just wait this one out and sign him as a UFA, whereas Tom would have gone back into the draft.

They’d be lucky to get anything more than a token return to dispel any allegations of bad faith negotiating on New York’s part. A late 2nd rounder and B or C level prospect, maybe.