[confirmed] Flames will go after Derek Ryan in FA

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

I can already sense the upcoming contention in this forum if Ryan were here to sign

Derek Ryan: The Future Whipping Boy

I don't think people should really look at it that way.


For instance, it is all relative of his contract. If there was no salary cap, I don't think there would be any naysayers with regards to bringing him in - he would more than likely become an asset and add solid depth to the center position, and hopefully creates some chemistry with a guy like Lazar.


What is too much? That is also relative.


I think 3.5 is way too much for a 4th line center. If he were to sign for that, it would make me very apprehensive of it working out, especially if he got any significant term (over 2 years for me).



With that being said, I still wouldn't spam the boards with how bad he is, how big of a mistake it was, etc., at least until we actually saw him in games and seen what his utilization would be. Heck, at 3.5 million for a 4th line center IS extravagant, but if he hits numbers close to those he achieved in Carolina (that would be a significant feat coming off the 4th line), while adding a strong defensive element to the Flames and playing the PK, while also taking important draws, I don't think anyone here would complain. They would probably applaud the move and the player.


That's the crux of this argument - how much is too much for a 4th line center, and how well he performs from that spot. He may really surprise people (myself included). Until he is signed and gets into games, we will just have to wait and see, regardless of the contract.


It isn't always about adding the best players. It is adding the best players that you think can out-perform their relative cap hits that really matters. He does it, he will be loved, regardless of where he plays in the lineup. He doesn't, and well, he turns into Brouwer.

When Brouwer was first signed, there was a lot of apprehension, but overall I would say it was a relative feeling of 'neutral' to 'positive' mix of posts. It wasn't until Brouwer started under-performing that he became a whipping boy.


Likewise, players can elevate their play out of whipping boy status. There was no bigger whipping boy than Stajan on these boards for a season or two, but he one season he came in prepared, changed his game, and was more or less universally appreciated, though undeniably still over-paid.


It will be interesting to see how Ryan pans out. I just hope it doesn't involve term as the Flames will have some bigger RFAs to sort out next season.

[agulati]

Is 2 years at 2/2.5 mil being too optimistic?

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

So you are saying he was a staple on a top 10 power play?
OK then, I withdraw my previous opposition to this potential signing, assuming the price is right.

Derek Ryan was a staple yes, but his PP production was poor.

16/17- 3.4 p/60
17/18-2.6 p/60

Brouwer in comparion:
16/17- 3.8 p/60
17/18- 3.8 p/60

His ES production on the other hand was pretty decent:
16/17- 1.36 p/60 (7th in forwards)
17/18- 1.68 p/60 (5th in forwards)

This blows Brouwer out of the water at ES and is decent production for a 2nd/3rd line forward.

And that's the thing. Peters seemed to really like this guy judging from ice time including ample time on the PP despite not being great there. I think if Calgary signs him, its probably not to play a 4th line role.

Like Calgary4life says, whether this move will be viewed as a positive addition will be based on cap hit. Ideally it would be lower than other players with similar production as he isn't very proven.

I would be pretty wary of anything over 1-2 seasons with this guy as well. He's turning 32 in December, which is the range when elite athletic performance declines.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by agulati

Is 2 years at 2/2.5 mil being too optimistic?

I just looked at Ryan's previous contract history, and given his age and his relative lack of NHL experience, I suspect 2 x 2.5 would be likely to get it done. A 29-point season got him an $800,000 raise from the Hurricanes. I don't think he's likely to be a high-profile target on July 1, so I don't think he'd sneeze at another raise of a million.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

I just looked at Ryan's previous contract history, and given his age and his relative lack of NHL experience, I suspect 2 x 2.5 would be likely to get it done. A 29-point season got him an $800,000 raise from the Hurricanes. I don't think he's likely to be a high-profile target on July 1, so I don't think he'd sneeze at another raise of a million.

I don’t remember who said it but while discussing Derek Ryan on SN960 this afternoon it was said that he is fielding a lot of offers.

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by devo22

RH shot, good on faceoffs ...

Originally Posted by devo22

which RH center who's good on FOs....

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

15 goals, 38 points last year with a 56.5% face off percentage last year, 15+ minutes per night.

He's 31 but not a lot of pro miles on.

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Ryan's advanced stats are very strong and he's very good in the face-off circle as he's put up 55.3%, and 56.5% during the last 2 seasons. He's likely being viewed as the stabilizing force on the 4th line and will be a mainstay on PP 2.

Not disagreeing with anyone per se, but using this as a jumping off point to talk about face offs. . . .

For a number of years one of my most well worn critiques of the Flames was their continual failure to sign or develop a strong face off man, and the team's overall poor face off performance. Then I came across this article from Sports Illustrated, and was pretty shocked by the conclusions it presented. . . .

There are lots of different scopes one can view face-offs under, but all can also logically be brought into focus.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Mike F

Not disagreeing with anyone per se, but using this as a jumping off point to talk about face offs. . . .



For a number of years one of my most well worn critiques of the Flames was their continual failure to sign or develop a strong face off man, and the team's overall poor face off performance. Then I came across this article from Sports Illustrated, and was pretty shocked by the conclusions it presented. . . .

I have long figured that the margins between good and poor face off teams are so small that they don’t make much tangible difference. I will say this though: while the effect is not quantifiable it is good to have a player or two who excel in this skill for those rare instances when a faceoff win or loss has the potential to change the outcome of a game.

[AC]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I have long figured that the margins between good and poor face off teams are so small that they don’t make much tangible difference. I will say this though: while the effect is not quantifiable it is good to have a player or two who excel in this skill for those rare instances when a faceoff win or loss has the potential to change the outcome of a game.

See: Brouwer in OT on the penalty kill vs ROR...

[Bourque's Twin]

Undrafted, small guy who played his first game in the NHL at age 28. I bet this guy has tremendous work ethic and determination. That always helps a team.

Not to mention, he put up 15 goals and 38 points last season, which is 1 more goal and 8 less assists than Backlund put up last year. He would've been ranked 6th among Flames forwards for both goals and points last year. Sounds like a perfect middle 6 player.

He also has great faceoff skills.

Sign me up.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Flames fans should be aware of how GG used Brouwer, as this is how Peters used Ryan. Too much ice time for a substandard player, who as a result, earned greater points than he would on almost any other teams. I can’t imagine another team (any team) investing this much time in a player of this limited talent. Seems like a probable waste of talent on any other roster, including the Flames.

[FlamesNation23]

I know some here dont like putting too much weight on what fans of carolina say about him but the fact is they know way more about how ryan was utilized under peters than we do. Its like us ripping on gg’s use of brouwer or stajan late in games. We saw it happen and it was bad.

I have no doubt that ryan is a better player than brouwer. However, carolina fans are clearly saying how ryan was peters go to guy. He would put him out on he 2nd pp and in ot. They dont think the player is bad but rather the deployment was very questionable. I can hope peters dosent do the same here and if utilized correctly, ryan would be a great add no doubt. However, old habits die hard and i just dont see this ending well. He is a depth player and if he signs here and takes time away from the better playmakers on this team, i will really question trelivings decision of giving peters the guys he wants.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by New Era

Flames fans should be aware of how GG used Brouwer, as this is how Peters used Ryan. Too much ice time for a substandard player, who as a result, earned greater points than he would on almost any other teams. I can’t imagine another team (any team) investing this much time in a player of this limited talent. Seems like a probable waste of talent on any other roster, including the Flames.

Ryan is 10x the player Brouwer is.

Analytics have shown how bad Brouwer is and how much he drags his teammates down for years and Ryan is the complete opposite. His analytics are fantastic and produces very respectable offensive numbers in a top 9 role

It's not even worth a discussion.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by New Era

Flames fans should be aware of how GG used Brouwer, as this is how Peters used Ryan. Too much ice time for a substandard player, who as a result, earned greater points than he would on almost any other teams. I can’t imagine another team (any team) investing this much time in a player of this limited talent. Seems like a probable waste of talent on any other roster, including the Flames.

Sounds like Ferland

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

Ryan is 10x the player Brouwer is.

Analytics have shown how bad Brouwer is and how much he drags his teammates down for years and Ryan is the complete opposite. His analytics are fantastic and produces very respectable offensive numbers in a top 9 role

It's not even worth a discussion.

Bull####. Brouwer, for all his warts, has a history of being a productive NHL player. Ryan has two ####ing years under Bill Peters where he was marginally a contributing NHL player. For crying out loud, Ryan has a single season of 15 goals. Brouwer has met or exceeded that seven times. I hate Brouwer with the passion of 10,000 suns, but he’s is a better player than Ryan. He actually has some history beind his game. Ryan would not be in the NHL without the favorable playing time provided by Bill Peters. Put Ryan in Brouwer’s role and he doesn’t come close to those 30some points. He’s more of a 15-20 player in GG’s system.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by New Era

Bull####. Brouwer, for all his warts, has a history of being a productive NHL player. Ryan has two ####ing years under Bill Peters where he was marginally a contributing NHL player. For crying out loud, Ryan has a single season of 15 goals. Brouwer has met or exceeded that seven times. I hate Brouwer with the passion of 10,000 suns, but he’s is a better player than Ryan. He actually has some history beind his game. Ryan would not be in the NHL without the favorable playing time provided by Bill Peters. Put Ryan in Brouwer’s role and he doesn’t come close to those 30some points. He’s more of a 15-20 player in GG’s system.

Literally 99% of the analytics community was calling the Brouwer signing a complete and utter failure from the moment he signed. He had dragged his teammates down throughout his entire career and was on the wrong side of 30 when he signed, which is a HUGE deal for that type of player.

We all saw this coming.

Ryan is the complete opposite of Brouwer. Much better player.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by AC

See: Brouwer in OT on the penalty kill vs ROR...

I believe that was the game where GG jumped the shark for me.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I have long figured that the margins between good and poor face off teams are so small that they don’t make much tangible difference. I will say this though: while the effect is not quantifiable it is good to have a player or two who excel in this skill for those rare instances when a faceoff win or loss has the potential to change the outcome of a game.

This is the point. Good teams have players who are really good at faceoffs. When the game is on the line, the other team is going to have its best faceoff guy on the ice. Likely their two best.

When Kesler and Getzlaf are taking every key draw against Backlund and Monahan, no wonder they lose 8 of 9 playoff games.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

Literally 99% of the analytics community was calling the Brouwer signing a complete and utter failure from the moment he signed. He had dragged his teammates down throughout his entire career and was on the wrong side of 30 when he signed, which is a HUGE deal for that type of player.

We all saw this coming.

Ryan is the complete opposite of Brouwer. Much better player.

How about, and hear me out, how about we stop signing 31 year old bottom six forwards on July 1.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by New Era

Flames fans should be aware of how GG used Brouwer, as this is how Peters used Ryan. Too much ice time for a substandard player, who as a result, earned greater points than he would on almost any other teams. I can’t imagine another team (any team) investing this much time in a player of this limited talent. Seems like a probable waste of talent on any other roster, including the Flames.

Brouwer finished the season with 6 goals. Unless by earning greater points, you mean the goals for the other team that Brouwer cost us.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

How about, and hear me out, how about we stop signing 31 year old bottom six forwards on July 1.

Do you want to go into next season with the same bottom 6 we had last year, which happened to be the worst in the league? Because I don't.

While we do need another top 6 forward (Treliving said so himself today that he's gonna try and acquire another one), we also need to upgrade our bottom 6 and Ryan would be an excellent add from that standpoint