That's a great video, but it doesn't clarify what a person does with their own body. If there is no imbalance of power between the two and one person says "I'm going to have a cup of tea by myself" does that require consent? As long as there's no imbalance of power, both are free to leave and they're in a place that allows the consumption of tea there seems to be no violation. It just seems pretty rude and sleazy to do so if the other person isn't into it.
If someone comes to your home or hotel room, where you can't be considered free to leave, and they insist on making themselves a cup of tea, then that would be a violation, or if there is an imbalance of power. If someone makes him/herself tea in public or at work, obviously that's a violation of another type. Those seem to be the the type of issues with LCK that distinguish the violation of a person's rights from just the rude and sleazy.
Anyways, just a thought experiment for exploring the boundaries.
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There is pretty much always an imbalance of power between any two people. It's a question of how big it is, and how big it is acceptable for it to be. Further complicating things, relationships forming across power imbalances is one of the forces that reduces those imbalances.
We're already seeing a trend where people of higher status are marrying each other, voluntarily, and the resulting effects on income inequality. If we rule out consent being possible through a power imbalance that's only going to make it worse.
There needs to be room in this conversation to acknowlege consensual but transactional sex. Those who would define all transactional sex as non-consensual are really attacking the liberty of the people choosing to engage in it. A person consenting to transactional sex is assessing that what they will gain outweighs what they are giving up. It's mutual benefit unless one party is incapable of making the assessment accurately.
There is a difference between an imbalance of power by choice. Rich women and hot young guy and an imbalance of power by necessity. Boss and subordinate. Producer and Actor.
When that power imbalance is created by a day to day function of living then the ability to consent is diminished. That is not to say consent can't be obtained but in general those are environments where abuse of that power will occur.
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It's not really about the power imbalance as it's about the way people handle that. In many of these cases, either the perpetrator is giving no hints whether or not they would use their power against the victim if they refused their advances. Quite commonly they are even explicitly or by dropping strong hints making it clear that they are absolutely using their power as leverage to get what they want, and that's flat out abusive behavior.
People in power should act responsibly with it.
If you're trying to innocently make a pass at someone you have power over, you need to take extra steps to make sure the other person does not feel threatened or pressured. Otherwise you risk being an abuser.
If you're a person with status but not much actual power it's not as clear how much effort you should put into defusing that experience of a power imbalance, but it's still something people should be aware of. Especially if the other party is clearly younger.
Last edited by Itse; 11-13-2017 at 08:13 AM.
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As for Louis C.K., a teary-sounding Maron said, “People are like, ‘How are you gonna be friends with that guy?’ He’s my friend. He ####ed up. He’s in big ####ing trouble. What am I gonna do? I’m gonna be his friend. What do you want me to do?”
As for Louis C.K., a teary-sounding Maron said, “People are like, ‘How are you gonna be friends with that guy?’ He’s my friend. He ####ed up. He’s in big ####ing trouble. What am I gonna do? I’m gonna be his friend. What do you want me to do?”
Man, that's gotta be tough. A majority of people are looking at this through a black & white perspective and expect everyone to distance themselves from these people. Yet, how can you turn your back on a friend? How can you support someone to heal and be a better person if their entire support network falls away under that kind of pressure?
At least optically Louis CK appears remorseful and to understand that what he did was wrong and inexcusable. I would expect Maron to fully stand beside his friend, even if he condemns his actions.
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Conversation has veered away from pedophilia a bit, but for those wanting to take the plunge into the "Pedophile rings are the tie that binds the global elites" conspiracy (like how the media initially tried to make the narrative about Spacey coming out over him being a pedo). Here's Ted Gunderson (former head of Los Angeles FBI) talking about the experiences he had when trying to investigate these rings and and how he dedicated the last years of his life to exposing them. It seemed pretty out there when I first listened to it years ago, but every year since it seems more true than untrue:
The first thing I want to do is apologize: to Leeann, to everyone else who was part of that tour, to everyone who has worked for me, to everyone I represent, and to everyone who counts on me to be an ally and supporter and champion of women. There's more I want to say, but the first and most important thing—and if it's the only thing you care to hear, that's fine—is: I'm sorry.
I respect women. I don't respect men who don't. And the fact that my own actions have given people a good reason to doubt that makes me feel ashamed.
But I want to say something else, too. Over the last few months, all of us—including and especially men who respect women—have been forced to take a good, hard look at our own actions and think (perhaps, shamefully, for the first time) about how those actions have affected women.
For instance, that picture. I don't know what was in my head when I took that picture, and it doesn't matter. There's no excuse. I look at it now and I feel disgusted with myself. It isn't funny. It's completely inappropriate. It's obvious how Leeann would feel violated by that picture. And, what's more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by it—women who have had similar experiences in their own lives, women who fear having those experiences, women who look up to me, women who have counted on me.
Coming from the world of comedy, I've told and written a lot of jokes that I once thought were funny but later came to realize were just plain offensive. But the intentions behind my actions aren't the point at all. It's the impact these jokes had on others that matters. And I'm sorry it's taken me so long to come to terms with that.
While I don't remember the rehearsal for the skit as Leeann does, I understand why we need to listen to and believe women’s experiences.
I am asking that an ethics investigation be undertaken, and I will gladly cooperate.
And the truth is, what people think of me in light of this is far less important than what people think of women who continue to come forward to tell their stories. They deserve to be heard, and believed. And they deserve to know that I am their ally and supporter. I have let them down and am committed to making it up to them.
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Man, that's gotta be tough. A majority of people are looking at this through a black & white perspective and expect everyone to distance themselves from these people. Yet, how can you turn your back on a friend? How can you support someone to heal and be a better person if their entire support network falls away under that kind of pressure?
At least optically Louis CK appears remorseful and to understand that what he did was wrong and inexcusable. I would expect Maron to fully stand beside his friend, even if he condemns his actions.
The whole thing is I think worth listening to.
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