[PGT] Flames comeback from being down 3-0; beat Stars in SO 4-3

[GioforPM]

Raymond's advanced stats are not horrible, compared to his teammates:

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?repo...eamId=20&pos=S

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Raymond's advanced stats are not horrible, compared to his teammates:

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?repo...eamId=20&pos=S

"Advanced stats" are no good.

[GioforPM]

BTW, just for accuracy Raymond got one less offensive zone faceoff than Bennett, not more like someone claimed (2 versus 3).

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by heep223

You say Hartley has mindless man love for Raymond, but your theory falls apart because he often healthy scratches him.

He probably thinks that when Raymond is in the lineup, he's more effective if he's given a more offensive role as opposed to in the bottom six. He's not wrong.

Ya his 2 points in 13 games shows that..

Any Raymond apologists need to give their head a shake. He's hot garbage in any role. Blake Comeau v2.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Ya his 2 points in 13 games shows that..



Any Raymond apologists need to give their head a shake. He's hot garbage in any role. Blake Comeau v2.

I am just saying that it is a logical explanation of Hartley's actions in regards to Raymond. He's either healthy scratched or in an offensive role.

The other poster was saying that Hartley has a love affair with Raymond, if this was the case why does he scratch him all the time?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Ya his 2 points in 13 games shows that..

Any Raymond apologists need to give their head a shake. He's hot garbage in any role. Blake Comeau v2.

For myself, I was commenting only on his use last game. He played pretty well, was used more as a result. IMO, Hartley's only consistent pattern is to give in-game ice time to players who are playing well in that game (subject to their line placement).

Jooris hadn't played well, Bollig wasn't getting in versus the Stars. So Raymond gets a lineup spot. He doesn't fit well with a grinder line, nor a checking line, so he's going to play on a higher end one. He's going to be used in a PP where there's more open ice which will put him in a better spot to succeed.

Sure his point total this season sucks. But last night he was good enough to warrant being in the lineup and being given what ice time he got. Which was a tiny bit more than other guys who didn't score, but didn't make much impact, like Frolik, Ferland and Granlund, but less than guys who did a bit more than him, like Stajan and Colborne.

[FBI]

I thought Ferland had WAY more of an impact than Raymond last night.

[Petert]

Raymond clocked in at 14:48.
Only 6 other forwards clocked in more ice-times.
Bennett 15:43
Colborne 16:23
Gaudreau 18:25
Hudler 18:14
Monahan 18:33
Stajan 16:11

And you were saying Raymond was more effective other than the aforementioned 6 forwards?
I would argue Backlund way more deserved all those Raymond's PP time based on this "in-game" excuse.

Rock on, Hartley fans.

[wired]

What a night to not be feeling good. Went to bed before the game started....crap.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Petert

Raymond clocked in at 14:48.
Only 6 other forwards clocked in more ice-times.
Bennett 15:43
Colborne 16:23
Gaudreau 18:25
Hudler 18:14
Monahan 18:33
Stajan 16:11

And you were saying Raymond was more effective other than the aforementioned 6 forwards?
I would argue Backlund way more deserved all those Raymond's PP time based on this "in-game" excuse.

Rock on, Hartley fans.

My opinion has nothing to do with Hartley. And do I think Raymond was better than Frolik, Ferland, Backlund, Granlund and Jones? For the most part he was at least as good as those guys last night and better than some. Ferland had one good shift, Frolik was not well and played like it, Granlund was not a factor and was 28% in faceoffs, so his line wasn't going to get much. Backlund was on the same line as Raymond and they got the same ice time with the exception that Raymond got a couple power play shifts. The exact same thing happened to Jones. So basically, the only complaint that can be made is that Backlund or Jones should have been on the power play (and Backlund doesn't play wing).

[Split98]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think the Raymond haters are actually looking for issues to complain about. He played with a lot of energy and drove the play quite well. Until the third he was more visible than some of the "top" players. Tripped over the blue line? I never saw it. But I did see a few good chances he created with speed. And the Flames' top players didn't lack for mistakes. Gaudreau and Brodie made a couple really bad giveaways, Hudler skated into tight coverage a fair bit and Frolik wasn't himself. Bennett had one of his more quiet games.

Does Raymond forecheck hard? No. Not even when he's playing well. Does he skate fast and have a decent shot? When he's on, why, yes he does. His last two starts he's been a pretty adequate guy in his role.

I wanted Raymond to do well, I like him. I definitely agree that he played with a lot of energy, but plays just died with him a lot that night.

He did 'trip' over the blue line twice I saw. Once, he literally fell entering the zone. Was a turnover and a pretty good chance for the Stars. The other time he was spinning with the puck and lost sight of it. Turnover for the Stars that didn't amount to much.

But definitely two instances of losing the puck all on his own 3 feet into their zone.

It's not as much a 'I don't like Raymond' as it is a 'why is Hartley using a struggling Raymond at such crucial times?'

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Split98

I wanted Raymond to do well, I like him. I definitely agree that he played with a lot of energy, but plays just died with him a lot that night.

He did 'trip' over the blue line twice I saw. Once, he literally fell entering the zone. Was a turnover and a pretty good chance for the Stars. The other time he was spinning with the puck and lost sight of it. Turnover for the Stars that didn't amount to much.

But definitely two instances of losing the puck all on his own 3 feet into their zone.

It's not as much a 'I don't like Raymond' as it is a 'why is Hartley using a struggling Raymond at such crucial times?'

Gaudreau made exactly the same kind of giveaways. Yeah, Raymond isn't Gaudreau in lots of other ways, but lets try and not pick out a couple plays that make the narrative work - let's look at the game as a whole.

What crucial times are you talking about? The power play? That's when you use your less physical, quicker skaters. And after the first unit of Gaudreau, Monahan, and (I think) Hudler, who else gets time? Colborne (for net front) and Bennett and Raymond. What winger did you want instead? Ferland, Jones or Frolik? None of them were much good offensively in the game. And none of them are the puck carrier type, except maybe Frolik.

The fact the second unit had two shifts of about a minute suggests it was a pretty effective PP and they were in the O-zone for most of the time.

[Petert]

Always earned, never given, except when you are Mason Raymond.
Let me guess, the excuse must be Raymond having a killer practice!
Press box material to automatically PP regular with close to 15 minutes of ice-times.
Raymond was a fixture on that 2nd unit all night long.
Hartley does exactly the same thing with Setoguchi until BT finally just exiled him to the minors.
And now we are comparing Raymond to JG?
Please do not insult Gaudreau.
Have you actually been watching any game at all?
One drives plays while the other one kills plays.

PP time of course is crucial, and that's when you should be looking to score.
2 points in 13 games is a good indication that person should not be on PP, especially when we are trailing.
OT is very crucial too, against a team in our own conference.

Just further proved that Hartley is not very good at handling B prospects.
It has been beaten to death that Granlund appears to be way more suitable as a winger than as a C.
But no, once we convert him to a winger, we cannot use that faceoff excuse to send him back down to the minors!
Jones can easily play as a way better winger than Raymond, and I have never been a fan of Jones.
Backlund does not play wing, but he can easily slot into the C position and relocates Colborne to wing, where he has been playing the majority of the time.
Pretty sure Backlund takes faceoffs better than Colborne too, since we are bringing this up.
Just too many options available other than an ice-cold Mason Raymond.

I personally would take any other forward over Raymond other than Bollig and Jooris on the PP, regardless of basing the decision on the Dallas' game, or the season so far.
We were indeed watching a completely different game.

Disclaimer, my opinions have everything to do with Hartley, the coaching staff and Raymond!

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Petert

Always earned, never given, except when you are Mason Raymond.
Let me guess, the excuse must be Raymond having a killer practice!
Press box material to automatically PP regular with close to 15 minutes of ice-times.
Raymond was a fixture on that 2nd unit all night long.
Hartley does exactly the same thing with Setoguchi until BT finally just exiled him to the minors.
And now we are comparing Raymond to JG?
Please do not insult Gaudreau.
Have you actually been watching any game at all?
One drives plays while the other one kills plays.

PP time of course is crucial, and that's when you should be looking to score.
2 points in 13 games is a good indication that person should not be on PP, especially when we are trailing.
OT is very crucial too, against a team in our own conference.

Just further proved that Hartley is not very good at handling B prospects.
It has been beaten to death that Granlund appears to be way more suitable as a winger than as a C.
But no, once we convert him to a winger, we cannot use that faceoff excuse to send him back down to the minors!
Jones can easily play as a way better winger than Raymond, and I have never been a fan of Jones.
Backlund does not play wing, but he can easily slot into the C position and relocates Colborne to wing, where he has been playing the majority of the time.
Pretty sure Backlund takes faceoffs better than Colborne too, since we are bringing this up.
Just too many options available other than an ice-cold Mason Raymond.

I personally would take any other forward over Raymond other than Bollig and Jooris on the PP, regardless of basing the decision on the Dallas' game, or the season so far.
We were indeed watching a completely different game.

Disclaimer, my opinions have everything to do with Hartley, the coaching staff and Raymond!

At first I thought that
This was a weird poetic
Form, like a haiku!

You should try to craft your Raymond hatred into a Christmas poem, it would be far more interesting to read.

[FBI]

On the first day of Christmas Mason Raymond gave to me, a brutal give away to their D..

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Petert

Always earned, never given, except when you are Mason Raymond.
Let me guess, the excuse must be Raymond having a killer practice!
Press box material to automatically PP regular with close to 15 minutes of ice-times.
Raymond was a fixture on that 2nd unit all night long.
Hartley does exactly the same thing with Setoguchi until BT finally just exiled him to the minors.
And now we are comparing Raymond to JG?
Please do not insult Gaudreau.
Have you actually been watching any game at all?
One drives plays while the other one kills plays.

PP time of course is crucial, and that's when you should be looking to score.
2 points in 13 games is a good indication that person should not be on PP, especially when we are trailing.
OT is very crucial too, against a team in our own conference.

Just further proved that Hartley is not very good at handling B prospects.
It has been beaten to death that Granlund appears to be way more suitable as a winger than as a C.
But no, once we convert him to a winger, we cannot use that faceoff excuse to send him back down to the minors!
Jones can easily play as a way better winger than Raymond, and I have never been a fan of Jones.
Backlund does not play wing, but he can easily slot into the C position and relocates Colborne to wing, where he has been playing the majority of the time.
Pretty sure Backlund takes faceoffs better than Colborne too, since we are bringing this up.
Just too many options available other than an ice-cold Mason Raymond.

I personally would take any other forward over Raymond other than Bollig and Jooris on the PP, regardless of basing the decision on the Dallas' game, or the season so far.
We were indeed watching a completely different game.

Disclaimer, my opinions have everything to do with Hartley, the coaching staff and Raymond!

I do not disagree with everything you said. Jones is better than Raymond. However, players have different roles in the power play and last game, Colborne had the power forward, net crashing role that would have been Jones' otherwise. Raymond had the high wing spot.

Jones, Backlund, and Frolik all had identical ice time, as Raymond, (12 m) except only one of them could play the power play, which added a couple minutes to Raymond's time. I didn't have much complaint about how Raymond played on the second unit. They had decent pressure and had the exact same success as Gaudreau, Monahan and Hudler.

BTW, Backlund is not better than Colborne at faceoffs, at least, not percentage wise. Backlund has better defensive positioning at centre, which is why he gets that role.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by FBI

On the first day of Christmas Mason Raymond gave to me, a brutal give away to their D..

On the second day of Christmas
Mason Raymond gave to me
2 bobbled pucks on the PP
And a brutal give away to their D

[FlamesNation23]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

On the second day of Christmas
Mason Raymond gave to me
2 bobbled pucks on the PP
And a brutal give away to their D

On the third day of Christmas
Mason Raymond gave to me
3 trips on himself
2 bobbled pucks on the PP
And a brutal give away to their D

[jg13]

Originally Posted by FlamesNation23

On the third day of Christmas
Mason Raymond gave to me
3 trips on himself
2 bobbled pucks on the PP
And a brutal give away to their D

On the fourth day of Christmas
Mason Raymond gave to me
4 wrap around fails
3 trips on himself
2 bobbled pucks on the PP
and a brutal giveaway to their D

[Go_Flames4ever]

Originally Posted by jg13

On the fourth day of Christmas
Mason Raymond gave to me
4 wrap around fails
3 trips on himself
2 bobbled pucks on the PP
and a brutal giveaway to their D

On the fifth day of Christmas
Mason Raymond gave to me
5 pointless strides
4 wrap around fails
3 trips on himself
2 bobbled pucks on the PP
and a brutal giveaway to their D