[PGT] Where is the defense? Flames lose to Avs 6-3

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Drak

Hartley has to go? Trade Gio? What?

This team is still in a rebuild. Last year was fantastic and the playoffs were gravy. The problem is, now people's expectations have skyrocketed into the stratosphere. We need to settle down and face the reality that there's still work to do, this team is young, and frantically hitting the panic button at this stage with these sorts of demands is not reasonable.

Rebuild should be showing improvement, rather then looking like a fire drill. If the team is taking a step backwards, thats the problem.

Right now, the team looks lost and can't seem to figure out now that the D's time and pass is taken away and the breakout stretch pass is taken away... now what?

That can't be the only success to the team, if they are "rebuilding" ... maybe Hartley finds something to help the teams game, but if he's not, the coach isn't part of the rebuild. The team is probably better then their record and chaotic play shows, and they'll probably have their good stretches in the season but this team has really got to look like an actual team and not a fire drill.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Wiggum_PI

Quite a few people have suggested firing the coach, but who's available that's a way better coach then Hartley?

[Armchair Quarterback]

You change the GM before you change the coach. Treliving is shaping up to be Sutter 2.0 with some of the country club signings he has done. And the goalie mess IS Treliving's fault.

But sure keep blaming the coach, who is stuck with a boatload of useless, non-contributing veterans

[polak]

Originally Posted by Drak

Hartley has to go? Trade Gio? What?

This team is still in a rebuild. Last year was fantastic and the playoffs were gravy. The problem is, now people's expectations have skyrocketed into the stratosphere. We need to settle down and face the reality that there's still work to do, this team is young, and frantically hitting the panic button at this stage with these sorts of demands is not reasonable.

How exactly is Hartley part of the rebuild if he can't get any improvement from this team? What's his purpose?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Rebuild should be showing improvement, rather then looking like a fire drill. If the team is taking a step backwards, thats the problem.

Does the team look like a fire drill? Or does the score look like a fire drill when opposing teams capitalize on everything ever?

Has there been an increase in giveaways and the like? Yes, the team is also playing a system that puts more pressure on the puck-carrier to make decisions.

The 2014-15 system worked so well because of its simplicity, but was also exploited as a bonafide weakness by good teams. Now the team is progressing to an NHL system and players' individual weaknesses are being exploited.

It's funny, last year I criticized Hartley's system because it was taking shortcuts. As of late, I feel as if I like Hartley's system a lot more but the players themselves are being exploited. The team hasn't taken a step backwards, they've just been exposed a bit, and that's being magnified by some horrendous goaltending at times.

[Drak]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Rebuild should be showing improvement, rather then looking like a fire drill. If the team is taking a step backwards, thats the problem.

Right now, the team looks lost and can't seem to figure out now that the D's time and pass is taken away and the breakout stretch pass is taken away... now what?

That can't be the only success to the team, if they are "rebuilding" ... maybe Hartley finds something to help the teams game, but if he's not, the coach isn't part of the rebuild. The team is probably better then their record and chaotic play shows, and they'll probably have their good stretches in the season but this team has really got to look like an actual team and not a fire drill.

Teams go through slumps. No one is denying they haven't taken a step back from last year. Anyone can see that. That was clearly what I said. But the Flames have looked very good in a number of games this season outside of some shifty defensive plays and some shoddy goal tending, yesterday included outside of the clown show that occurred during and after the PK. Of course they have work to do. You put rebuilding and quotes as though it's not the case, when it is. We're all disappointed of course. Firing and making trading key players right now is over the top IMO.

[polak]

The offense has looked good on occasion. At no point this season have they looked defensively. There has been no improvement on the Defense since game 1. Even Brodie hasn't been able to improve it.

[polak]

Firing him now makes the most sense since the season is still salvageable. If you ride it out for another month or two and there's no improvement then you have to fire him any ways but it will be too late to do anything this season and instead, we'll probably play ourselves out of a good pick.

[Wiggum_PI]

Originally Posted by polak

How exactly is Hartley part of the rebuild if he can't get any improvement from this team? What's his purpose?

He's been more successful coaching the franchise then any other coach since Darryl Sutter. I still think Hartley is the right coach for the rebuild.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Armchair Quarterback

You change the GM before you change the coach. Treliving is shaping up to be Sutter 2.0 with some of the country club signings he has done. And the goalie mess IS Treliving's fault.

But sure keep blaming the coach, who is stuck with a boatload of useless, non-contributing veterans

Actually said "WHAAAAAT?" out loud reading this. Lol, fire Treliving? No, the coach who is a carryover from the previous GM will be gone before the current GM goes anywhere. Got to agree with Phan, this seems to be a coaching issue. Not saying I'm leading the fire Hartley mob but their on ice play doesn't reflect good coaching right now.

[nik-]

I would argue this isn't a step backwards, it's a leap backwards. It's one thing to not get the same results while getting outplayed like you were last year. It's a whole other thing when you're getting dummied every game.

Hartley has had one good year out of four. The last season we came in with any expectations was a gong show too. Granted, I say we, but mean ownership. Most had seemingly accepted the ship had sailed. Still, last year is definitely the extreme outlier in his tenure, and he appears to have no idea how to turn this around or even simplify things.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by polak

How exactly is Hartley part of the rebuild if he can't get any improvement from this team? What's his purpose?

Jesus, you have an incredibly short memory. There was a 20 point improvement in the 2014/15 season compared to the 2013/14 season. Is that not good enough for you?

[polak]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Jesus, you have an incredibly short memory. There was a 20 point improvement in the 2014/15 season compared to the 2013/14 season. Is that not good enough for you?

No.

Because what happened last year doesn't matter when the team has become the worst team in the NHL and far worse than the the 13/14 team that led the league in 1-goal game losses.

[CroFlames]

Not to mention January 18th, 2014.

The night the club turned the ship around.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by polak

The offense has looked good on occasion. At no point this season have they looked defensively. There has been no improvement on the Defense since game 1. Even Brodie hasn't been able to improve it.

i'd say they have improved since he's returned. he is a +4 while the flames as a whole have a goal differential of -7

problem is he can't play 60 minutes a night

[EVERLAST]

WOW POLAK

Coach of the year to FIRED!!!!

REAL MEN OF GENIUS on those budweiser commercials should do a spot on you.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by Drak

This team is still in a rebuild. Last year was fantastic and the playoffs were gravy. The problem is, now people's expectations have skyrocketed into the stratosphere. We need to settle down and face the reality that there's still work to do, this team is young, and frantically hitting the panic button at this stage with these sorts of demands is not reasonable.

The only guy who wants to trade Gio is Flash Walken, and he's been trying to trade him since Feaster was GM.

As for firing Hartley, again when a team is getting blown out every game to start a season, has won 1 regulation game, has a GAA above 4, it's more likely than not. It's just the nature of the business. Doesn't matter if you're Buffalo or Edmonton or Chicago. Losing that badly, that often wouldn't fly anywhere.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by polak

No.

Because what happened last year doesn't matter when the team has become the worst team in the NHL and far worse than the the 13/14 team.

So far...

God I hate these absolute statement when there's so much time left in the season.

They are struggling. Yes indeed are they ever having a hard time. I won't debate that at all.

However, they aren't that far off the mark overall and if they clean up parts of their game they'll still be a decent team for the rest of the year.

Unfortunately, the lost points now probably means they will finish behind last year's pace, but regression was expected this year...by just about anybody who follows hockey.

You can't throw away previous results when discussing a coach's tenure. The whole picture matters, and you don't overreact due to a poor start and relatively small sample size.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Jesus, you have an incredibly short memory. There was a 20 point improvement in the 2014/15 season compared to the 2013/14 season. Is that not good enough for you?

last year was an improvement, yes no question.

But the next step is hard... lots of teams that do make the step the Flames did last year, do not take the next step forward. Many get caught in purgatory until they eventually have to rebuild, again.

So, what is the next step Hartley? Does he know? Is it even possible? Tough question to ask, maybe it'll be the question Treliving asks as he's interviewing new candidates. When Darryl was interviewed in 2003, he apparently came in with a whole book full of comments and ideas; Ted Nolan came in with his hands in his pockets, unprepared.

[OldDutch]

I think it is becoming clear Bob caught lightning in a bottle last year. Not saying he didn't deserve a huge part of the credit, but I think a lot of moving pieces broke his way and this year they are not.

That is not to say he is not a good coach. He is, but I think a lot of things he tried and worked like goalie switching isn't, and really I think he is stuck. Much like Patrick Roy in Colorado. I have a feeling this season, and next will mirror Colorado with Bob as coach.

As weird as it sounds I don't think he is the sole issue. I just think for whatever reason things are not working, and he has no idea or options left. Maybe best to ride him to a top 3 pick this year, replace him next off season and start new.

I just think this team is so disjointed for some reason and like just about everyone can't figure out why. However, I would hate for us to repeat the Brent Sutter mistake and dig in on the coach for a few more years.