[News] Friedman: Feaster/Flames are not going to blow it up

[liamenator]

It seems that Ken King's first major hockey decision was so wildly successful, in hiring D. Sutter--from whom he likely did learn a lot about hockey ops--that his perception of his own hockey acumen is out of step with the reality that he's a newspaper man with a shrewd eye for business and community relations.

And actually, his vision on paper of how this iteration of Flames hockey ops would function doesn't look bad--lots of voices in the room, consensus, creative hires, unconventional approaches, etc.--as a clean break from Sutter's tightly controlled oligarchy. The problem is they haven't made the right hires, and it just doesn't seem to be functioning in an optimal way.

I mean, if you look at the core of our hockey ops team: King, Feaster, Weisbrod, Conroy, Holditch you see 3 non-hockey guys (Feaster, King, Holditch), 1 guy with no previous experience who's been learning on the fly (Conroy), and 1 guy whose biggest successes--though he's got a reputation as a sage around here--came in the scouting ranks & Basketball ops (Weisbrod). There's a lot of potential there, but I think we're starting to see that not much of that potential has been realized by these guys, either as a team or individuals, over the last 2 years.

And given that he's inserted himself into this hockey ops mix to such a degree--which can't really be argued anymore, at this point--I don't think we can reasonably expect King to be able to make the kind of sober evaluation and analysis required to decide whether this arrangement is working properly or not. Because this is his model, his team, his work, there's simply too much at stake for King for us to reasonably expect he'll be able to pull the plug when necessary.

So... he's gotta go.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Does this really matter though? I never really liked the idea of Feaster as GM making these decisions when he took over for Sutter but at this time wouldn't it be Weisbrod making the decisions as to who to draft? Perhaps I missed something but I thought these kinds of hockey decisions are specifically why Weisbrod was brought on.

Wouldn't that make it more important to judge Weisbrod's draft history and not Feaster's?

It seems a bit silly to lynch Feaster for something that isn't even his responsibility...

Hard to judge Weisbrod as he was never GM so how much input he had in the draft is tough to judge.

But the Bruins drafts he was part of outside of Seguin don't look like much and the Dallas draft he may have been a part of is basically nothing as well. Still early to tell on some Bruins guys and again hard to say what he did or didn't say but not a lot of evidence to support Weisbrod getting anything close to a GM spot at this point.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Does this really matter though? I never really liked the idea of Feaster as GM making these decisions when he took over for Sutter but at this time wouldn't it be Weisbrod making the decisions as to who to draft? Perhaps I missed something but I thought these kinds of hockey decisions are specifically why Weisbrod was brought on.

Wouldn't that make it more important to judge Weisbrod's draft history and not Feaster's?

It seems a bit silly to lynch Feaster for something that isn't even his responsibility...

Excuse me?

Since when is a GM ultimately not responsible for drafting?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by nik-

Ken King is responsible for the Canadian dollar and a freak playoff run.

From the business point of view this post ignores a ton of things King has done for the business and its owners. If we can out down the pitch forks for a moment it is clear King has been VERY good for the business

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by moon

Hard to judge Weisbrod as he was never GM so how much input he had in the draft is tough to judge.

But the Bruins drafts he was part of outside of Seguin don't look like much and the Dallas draft he may have been a part of is basically nothing as well. Still early to tell on some Bruins guys and again hard to say what he did or didn't say but not a lot of evidence to support Weisbrod getting anything close to a GM spot at this point.

From the sounds of it Weisbrod would have been one of the main guys when it came to the scouting (and therefor drafting) in the Bruins and I think you are definitely undervaluing the Bruins prospect strength.

From Hockey's Futures assessment of the Bruin's system:

STRENGTHS
Talent and depth on defense.
Talent and depth at all forward positions.
Depth in goal.
WEAKNESSES
Lack of top-end talent in goal.

I like the Bruins prospect pool more than the Pens when it comes for looking at a trade. The Pens have a lot of D prospects but not a lot of desirable forwards.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

From the business pint if view this post ignores a ton of things King has done for the business and its owners. If we can out down the pitch forks for a moment it is clear King has been VERY good for the business

Realistically, how hard is it to sell the corporate community of this city to shell out money for the hockey team?

Keep the charitable stuff steady, keep your organization out of bad press, and stay away from hockey ops. It's the easiest job of its kind in Calgary.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Realistically, how hard is it to sell the corporate community of this city to shell out money for the hockey team?

Keep the charitable stuff steady, keep your organization out of bad press, and stay away from hockey ops. It's the easiest job of its kind in Calgary.

That's just part of it. He's also expanded their operations in a number of ways through new ventures and ownership stakes in other teams. He's also helped the business identify and develop new revenue streams

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Excuse me?

Since when is a GM ultimately not responsible for drafting?

You are excused.

If Weisbrod, as the AGM of Player Personnel, is the guy that will be making the decision as to who to draft then the reality of the situation is that Feaster's draft history is irrelevant.

If it gets you off you can blame Feaster for putting Weisbrod in charge of the hockey decisions (unless you want to say that ultimately it is Ken King's responsibility that that was allowed to happen). Or you could say that it was ultimately God that put us all here to begin with. Whatever floats your boat.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

That's just part of it. He's also expanded their operations in a number of ways through new ventures and ownership stakes in other teams. He's also helped the business identify and develop new revenue streams

Yes, but there have to be not fewer than 30 other executives in this city who could do what KK does without interfering in hockey ops.

I'm not saying his time here has been a waste, but like everything, it may be time to move on, and he is a very replaceable piece.

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by Wolven

From the sounds of it Weisbrod would have been one of the main guys when it came to the scouting (and therefor drafting) in the Bruins and I think you are definitely undervaluing the Bruins prospect strength.

From Hockey's Futures assessment of the Bruin's system:


I like the Bruins prospect pool more than the Pens when it comes for looking at a trade. The Pens have a lot of D prospects but not a lot of desirable forwards.

Weisbrod was a pro scout (as in scouting NHL/AHL games) for the Bruins based in Tampa from 2006-2008 before becoming their director of college scouting. I think his influence on Boston's drafts tends to be overplayed on CP (full disclosure, I've been guilty of this myself).

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Realistically, how hard is it to sell the corporate community of this city to shell out money for the hockey team?

Keep the charitable stuff steady, keep your organization out of bad press, and stay away from hockey ops. It's the easiest job of its kind in Calgary.

If it was easy what happened in the 90's? Sure the dollar was crap and the team couldn't spend the the sponsorship dried up as well as did season ticket holders. The team is in a better place today for many reasons and King is part of that. The hockey operations area another story and it's quite frankly a mess.

I'm sure if Ken King was reading this thread he would have a chuckle but the joke is on him because no matter how smart he thinks he is and how great he thinks his/their plan is the results say otherwise and Flames fans and the entire hockey world see that this organization is the Islanders West. The worst thing to happen to a team or any business is when the management is oblivious to their failures and poor results. There can be no doubt that Flames management is out of touch with the the rest of the league when it comes to running a hockey team. When you have a 15th place team spending up to the cap in a 'win now' mode logic would dictate heads should roll but logic does not apply to this franchise in fact it appears business as usual and a 4th straight year out of the players, soon to be re-signed captain of the on ice failures to lead the same team next year given their 5th shot to break the streak of futility and fulfil the organization's ultimate goal of 8th place. King and Feaster would tell you in a straight face it's all part of the plan.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Wolven

You are excused.

If Weisbrod, as the AGM of Player Personnel, is the guy that will be making the decision as to who to draft then the reality of the situation is that Feaster's draft history is irrelevant.

If it gets you off you can blame Feaster for putting Weisbrod in charge of the hockey decisions (unless you want to say that ultimately it is Ken King's responsibility that that was allowed to happen). Or you could say that it was ultimately God that put us all here to begin with. Whatever floats your boat.

I guess Ken Lay was innocent then.

The buck always stops at the head of hockey operations - if the GM can't assemble a team that can draft effectively, then they are not capable of holding a job. Just like a project manager cannot simply blame his/her employees if they fail.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I don't know if Burke could do a better job, but axing King is not as easy as it would seem. He does bring a strong PR and management element to the administration, even if some people don't like the results (or lack of them). Hold the whole operation accountable, not just King.

So they all should be fired?

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Goodlad

Weisbrod was a pro scout (as in scouting NHL/AHL games) for the Bruins based in Tampa from 2006-2008 before becoming their director of college scouting. I think his influence on Boston's drafts tends to be overplayed on CP (full disclosure, I've been guilty of this myself).

I appreciate the reality check. I am still happier thinking that Weisbrod and the scouts are making the draft decisions over Feaster. I also think that in their limited time thus far making the draft decisions that they have done a good job at it.

I am surprised to admit that I like the entire 2011 draft class for the Flames. All 5 players that we drafted look like they have great potential. If Weisbrod was in on that then I would cheer him on to keep going.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

From the business point of view this post ignores a ton of things King has done for the business and its owners. If we can out down the pitch forks for a moment it is clear King has been VERY good for the business

McDonalds is a very well run business, I guess that means their food is really good!

[bluejays]

The best part of all the national attention the Flames are getting (though negative), is that the mainstream media realizes this team needs to rebuild. It's managing fans expectations. Ownership would look really stupid if they were buyers at the deadline, and with all this media exposure, they're opening themselves up to heavy scrutiny if they don't go into rebuilding mode - though what degree of rebuilding remains to be seen.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

They also consider the fans in most decisions they make, so getting rid of Iginla / the core is not an easy one because that's the house most of us Flames fans have grown up in for the last 18 years. Iginla is an institution in this city and you can't just fire him off without very good reason to do so.

But we have a very good reason for trading him: This franchise is so desperately asset-poor that they need to get something for Iginla while they still can. I'm sure a lot of fans don't think in those terms, but the whole point of having a hockey operations department is to make decisions based on hockey, not on sentiment and public pressure.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Wolven

From the sounds of it Weisbrod would have been one of the main guys when it came to the scouting (and therefor drafting) in the Bruins and I think you are definitely undervaluing the Bruins prospect strength.

From Hockey's Futures assessment of the Bruin's system:


I like the Bruins prospect pool more than the Pens when it comes for looking at a trade. The Pens have a lot of D prospects but not a lot of desirable forwards.

Well Weisbrod was a pro scout from 2006-08 so hard to credit him for those picks. From 2008-10 there aren't many guys on your list that were chosen and they are mainly low on the list the ones that are there. Plus hard to tell the role that he played as the Collegiate scout not head guy.

Boston may have a deep prospect pool but it doesn't seem to come from drafts that Weisbrod was a part of.

Originally Posted by Wolven

I am surprised to admit that I like the entire 2011 draft class for the Flames. All 5 players that we drafted look like they have great potential. If Weisbrod was in on that then I would cheer him on to keep going.

Seems like a fairly flimsy argument to support a guy considering those guys have played a grand total of 15 NHL games and of course you like the a recent draft of your favorite team. Fans always overrate their prospects and especially the guys that are shiny and new.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by fleury

The best part of all the national attention the Flames are getting (though negative), is that the mainstream media realizes this team needs to rebuild. It's managing fans expectations. Ownership would look really stupid if they were buyers at the deadline, and with all this media exposure, they're opening themselves up to heavy scrutiny if they don't go into rebuilding mode - though what degree of rebuilding remains to be seen.

The attention from the national media only highlights how supine our own media are. Reporters in other NHL cities - in Toronto, Boston, New York, Montreal - hold nothing back when it comes to assessing the team's management and holding their feet to the fire. It took a long time for the media in Calgary to question Sutter's handling of the team. And they have never taken upper management to task. Where are the columns by George Johnson or Scott Cruikshank questioning the direction of this franchise? Duhatscheck has recently started to become more critical, but he's more of a national than a local media now.

I don't know if it's King's connections with Calgary's newspapers or what, but Flames executive have an immunity from criticism that no other executive outside Edmonton shares. Or maybe it's just an Alberta thing - we don't criticize our own.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Wolven

You are excused.

If Weisbrod, as the AGM of Player Personnel, is the guy that will be making the decision as to who to draft then the reality of the situation is that Feaster's draft history is irrelevant.

If it gets you off you can blame Feaster for putting Weisbrod in charge of the hockey decisions (unless you want to say that ultimately it is Ken King's responsibility that that was allowed to happen). Or you could say that it was ultimately God that put us all here to begin with. Whatever floats your boat.

Well if Feaster isn't to be blamed for hockey decisions and Ken King runs the business then what the hell is he doing for the Flames exactly?

It doesn't "get anyone off" on blaming Feaster for putting Weisbrod in that is wear the blame should go and yes King should take responsibility for putting Feaster in as the GM, that is how organizations work.