Egypt leaves the Internet, citizens revolt. Update: Internet's back, still revolting.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by peter12

I was hoping that at the very least the underlined word hyperlinked to some charity or something. Vague caring and undirected benevolence is one of the WORST facets of Western democracy. All the moral self-superiority without having to raise a finger.

I have a nasty streak of contrarian in me, but in this case, I have to say that most of my position is driven by pure irritation.

Do you think that any kind of charitable donation would actually make it through to good use right now with all the mess they're in? Genuinely caring about something even if it has nothing to do with you personally is not a cop-out nor is it a faucet of moral self-superiority. It's a part of the human condition called "compassion." While the rest of the world is watching one of the most unprecedented historic events unfold before our eyes you are stamping your foot and shaking your fist about something you read in a textbook.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by peter12

Surprisingly cold?

I'm not saying don't comment on it, I'm saying don't act like you common cause with the Egyptians.

I don't have a common cause. But I am sympathetic to their situation and care to see the people prevail.

[burn_this_city]

Heres a pretty good blog from Egypt, the second last entry is a good read

http://sarthanapalos.wordpress.com/

[Bagor]

I'd like to set up a new group called "curious observers" to oppose the ostriches and cheerleaders.

[VladtheImpaler]

Let's look at Pakistan as an example - remember that woman who was sentenced to death for blasphemy? Then the governor who spoke out in her defense was assassinated. The "majority" opinion in Pakistan seems to be that his murderer is a hero. So, yes, I think you can say that "democracy" and "freedom" means something very different to those people than to me. Is Egypt different? Perhaps. BTC speaks of millions of Westernized people in Egypt, and, if you are in fact Egyptian, you and your family are part of this elite. But what is the reality on the ground? Perhaps to the vast majority of Egyptians "freedom" and "democracy" means sharia and "death to blasphemers", and repression of Copts and other undesirables. I don't know. So, to pretend that people on Cairo's streets are out there because of Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson is a bit premature to say the least. Again, Mubarak is an unpleasant character, but what will come next? Is it going to be the Westernized educated elite that rises to the top or the fellows with the beards?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

You know whats insulting? Thinking people in a foreign land can't comprehend our way of life, or that they couldnt handle or live in such a society. Theres millions of very westernized people living in Egypt. The common thread from these protests has been, freedom, democracy, and equal rights. Your desire to label and group people based on preconceived notions is unfortunate.

No, no, applying your views, and assuming those views are correct, just because you hold an opinion supporting, and then believing that you, and the rest of Egypt has some sort of common vision or brotherhood based on your values is grossly unfortunate.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Do you think that any kind of charitable donation would actually make it through to good use right now with all the mess they're in? Genuinely caring about something even if it has nothing to do with you personally is not a cop-out nor is it a faucet of moral self-superiority. It's a part of the human condition called "compassion." While the rest of the world is watching one of the most unprecedented historic events unfold before our eyes you are stamping your foot and shaking your fist about something you read in a textbook.

This is ridiculous. My intelligence has nothing to do with a textbook.

I am enjoying watching history unfold, if I can speak for myself. That's all. I make no recommendations as to the future.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Let's look at Pakistan as an example - remember that woman who was sentenced to death for blasphemy? Then the governor who spoke out in her defense was assassinated. The "majority" opinion in Pakistan seems to be that his murderer is a hero. So, yes, I think you can say that "democracy" and "freedom" means something very different to those people than to me. Is Egypt different? Perhaps. BTC speaks of millions of Westernized people in Egypt, and, if you are in fact Egyptian, you and your family are part of this elite. But what is the reality on the ground? Perhaps to the vast majority of Egyptians "freedom" and "democracy" means sharia and "death to blasphemers", and repression of Copts and other undesirables. I don't know. So, to pretend that people on Cairo's streets are out there because of Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson is a bit premature to say the least. Again, Mubarak is an unpleasant character, but what will come next? Is it going to be the Westernized educated elite that rises to the top or the fellows with the beards?

You can't take one country as crazy as they've become and copy paste special values across the entire middle east. Apart from the media frenzy about the muslim brotherhood, which isnt a terrorist organization according to the US state department, have we seen any tangible evidence of fanatical Islam from the demonstrations? We havent seen the usual anti-America and anti-Israeli posters and burning flags that goes part and parcel with that. Where's Egypt's Kohmeini? Chances are since he hasnt appeared yet and galvanized the people, there isnt one.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

You can't take one country as crazy as they've become and copy paste special values across the entire middle east. Apart from the media frenzy about the muslim brotherhood, which isnt even a terrorist organization according to the US state department, have we seen any tangible evidence of fanatical Islam from the demonstrations? We havent seen the usual anti-America and anti-Israeli posters and burning flags that goes part and parcel with that. Where's Egypt's Kohmeini? Chances are since he hasnt appeared yet and galvanized the people, there isnt one.

He is doing precisely the opposite by pointing out the diverse, and complex factors at play in a situation like in Egypt. How things will turn out is not clear.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by peter12

This is ridiculous. My intelligence has nothing to do with a textbook.

Must. Not. Bite...

I am enjoying watching history unfold, if I can speak for myself. That's all. I make no recommendations as to the future.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

You can't take one country as crazy as they've become and copy paste special values across the entire middle east. Apart from the media frenzy about the muslim brotherhood, which isnt a terrorist organization according to the US state department, have we seen any tangible evidence of fanatical Islam from the demonstrations? We havent seen the usual anti-America and anti-Israeli posters and burning flags that goes part and parcel with that. Where's Egypt's Kohmeini? Chances are since he hasnt appeared yet and galvanized the people, there isnt one.

I'm just saying that it's too early to say if this is a "good" thing... Yes, if I can speak in generalizations, "Egypt" is probably more moderate than "Pakistan" (in fact, I have no doubt of it). But that doesn't mean we know the outcome. Look at what happened in Iran - a rich, ancient (Persian) civilization, very "Westernized" - and what do they have now? Generally, a revolution is not a "good" or "bad" thing in and of itself. It's what follows...

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

I'm just saying that it's too early to say if this is a "good" thing... Yes, if I can speak in generalizations, "Egypt" is probably more moderate than "Pakistan" (in fact, I have no doubt of it). But that doesn't mean we know the outcome. Look at what happened in Iran - a rich, ancient (Persian) civilization, very "Westernized" - and what do they have now? Generally, a revolution is not a "good" or "bad" thing in and of itself. It's what follows...

It really depends what lense you look at it through, from the western standpoint at this point its hard to say if its good or bad. From the Egyptian perception that I'm familiar with, its entirely good, except for the bloodshed.

[HotHotHeat]

Holy ****

[Traditional_Ale]

^ Whoa...

[burn_this_city]

To be honest I'm surprised there wasnt more deaths.

[oilyfan]

revolution = theocratic religious establishment, with more repression - BAD
revolution = democratic elections, respect for minorities - GOOD

Hopefully the revolution in Egypt is of the second kind. Again my support is for freedom of the common man of Egypt.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

^ Whoa...

yeah that is pretty wild stuff.

What I am wondering, and have been all day, is how are they distinguishing who is on Mubareks "security squad" and who is an anti-government protester?

I realize that for the most part the demonstrators are in that square, but they have to leave at some point to eat/sleep/whatever, so are they then getting clobbered by the idiots outside the square without any way of knowing where they came from? What if one of the front line guys decides to callit a day and starts back through the crowd...does he too get smoked?

Gosh...what a mess.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Let's look at Pakistan as an example - remember that woman who was sentenced to death for blasphemy? Then the governor who spoke out in her defense was assassinated. The "majority" opinion in Pakistan seems to be that his murderer is a hero. So, yes, I think you can say that "democracy" and "freedom" means something very different to those people than to me. Is Egypt different? Perhaps. BTC speaks of millions of Westernized people in Egypt, and, if you are in fact Egyptian, you and your family are part of this elite. But what is the reality on the ground? Perhaps to the vast majority of Egyptians "freedom" and "democracy" means sharia and "death to blasphemers", and repression of Copts and other undesirables. I don't know. So, to pretend that people on Cairo's streets are out there because of Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson is a bit premature to say the least. Again, Mubarak is an unpleasant character, but what will come next? Is it going to be the Westernized educated elite that rises to the top or the fellows with the beards?

I believe that these people have a right to self-determination. And the best thing for us to do is provide passive and vague support* for their cause.

Whether or not they choose to elect the next Saddam will likely be in part a product of "The West's" historical involvement in that region's affairs. Might be nice to put a bullet in the guy's head right now, but it certainly isn't going to do much for long term resentment in the region.

Personally though, given some of the themes of the protestors, this isn't that likely to happen and to be honest, trying to influence the process will just end up making things worse in the long run.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

To be honest I'm surprised there wasnt more deaths.

It aint over yet...unfortunately.

Lets just hope the military keeps their weapons off the populace.

[Bagor]

I don't get the motives behind the idiots throwing molotov cocktails and destroying artifacts in the museum.

Pro or anti government ... what's the point of destroying a national treasure and important part of everyone's heritage?