[News] UPD: Coyotes renounce the rights to draft pick Mitchell Miller

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Bill Miller (no relation), a UND alumn, went on his show and called for Mitchell Miller to have his scholarship revoked. And his arguments is the same nonsensical claim that all 14 year olds know right from wrong. That claim doesn't even hold true for adults, let alone children.

You're objecting to the word "alumni"? Okay then.

I was always under the impression that being of good moral character was one of the factors that was used to decide on who gets a scholarship

[Plaedo]

https://www.tsn.ca/insider-trading-a...list-1.1544500

Quote:
Frank Seravalli: What we’ve learned is that this was not a secret among NHL scouting circles. I’m told that at least one third of the NHL’s teams, if not more, had scratched Miller off of their draft lists heading into the draft, saying at no point were they willing to draft Miller in any of the NHL’s rounds. In recent days we’ve seen the Arizona Coyotes and the University of North Dakota show their support for Miller but what does that mean in terms of his chances to represent Team USA at the World Junior Championship? Miller was part of their most recent evaluation camp, and I’m told he remains a candidate to represent Team USA in Edmonton over the holidays. A USA Hockey official told me today that they had been well aware of Miller’s past conduct and his behavior is indeed reprehensible. They feel that no kid should go through what Isaiah Meyer-Crothers has gone through, but at the same time, USA Hockey feels that there should be a path for all kids to make their way back.

I must admit I haven't read through all of the hate in this thread, but I agree with the stance from USA Hockey in bold. Something that is lost on much of society today is that there is and should be a way back for all, especially kids and adolescents. It's easy to point the finger, but we all screw up, and we are all a product of our upbringing and environment. And we are all stubborn in some ways and take too long to learn from some of our mistakes. Sometimes it takes time for one to even realize their wrongs, not to mention finally making amends, but that doesn't mean they should be crucified today. If I didn't know better I would think that many people here believe in capital punishment for much less than murder. Actually - what is the point of jails if people can't change, overcome their issues, and become better? We might as well put to death all murderers, rapists, thieves, robbers, liars, embezzlers, frauds, and anyone else that is unsavory towards society, right?

Of note - I think a "path for all kids to make their way back" does not simply mean ignoring mistakes. The process of an individual changing their character, and making amends for past wrongs, does take time and is a process.

Also noteworthy is that at least 1/3 of teams wrote the kid off. I'm not here to say that's a wrong choice, especially considering today's social-political environment. A team has to be concerned about public image and how each action will affect how the brand is perceived, whether or not they believe the kid can put his past behind him with some teaching and influence. But a large portion of the teams seemed to have the confidence that he could be worked with, improved upon, and guided, considering they didn't write him off of their draft board. Otherwise, he would be a risk to re-offend in a similar manner, and that would be catastrophic for a team's image.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by Plaedo

https://www.tsn.ca/insider-trading-a...list-1.1544500



I must admit I haven't read through all of the hate in this thread, but I agree with the stance from USA Hockey in bold. Something that is lost on much of society today is that there is and should be a way back for all, especially kids and adolescents. It's easy to point the finger, but we all screw up, and we are all a product of our upbringing and environment. And we are all stubborn in some ways and take too long to learn from some of our mistakes. Sometimes it takes time for one to even realize their wrongs, not to mention finally making amends, but that doesn't mean they should be crucified today. If I didn't know better I would think that many people here believe in capital punishment for much less than murder. Actually - what is the point of jails if people can't change, overcome their issues, and become better? We might as well put to death all murderers, rapists, thieves, robbers, liars, embezzlers, frauds, and anyone else that is unsavory towards society, right?

Of note - I think a "path for all kids to make their way back" does not simply mean ignoring mistakes. The process of an individual changing their character, and making amends for past wrongs, does take time and is a process.

Also noteworthy is that at least 1/3 of teams wrote the kid off. I'm not here to say that's a wrong choice, especially considering today's social-political environment. A team has to be concerned about public image and how each action will affect how the brand is perceived, whether or not they believe the kid can put his past behind him with some teaching and influence. But a large portion of the teams seemed to have the confidence that he could be worked with, improved upon, and guided, considering they didn't write him off of their draft board. Otherwise, he would be a risk to re-offend in a similar manner, and that would be catastrophic for a team's image.

He could probably help his cause by actually apologizing to the victim.

[timbit]

No apology and no repentance.
Tough to forgive.

[Plaedo]

Originally Posted by Red Potato Standing By

He could probably help his cause by actually apologizing to the victim.

I certainly agree!

[afc wimbledon]

I have made a living trying to help troubled kids 'find a way back' for 40 odd years, finding a way back though requires a sight more than just doing what the probation order forced you to do and then going back to working on your stick handling for a couple of years in the hopes that you will be good enough a player that everyone will ignore your lack of a moral compass, and we all know if the kid had done anything at all, volunteered with the special olympics or walked stray dogs (a personal favorite thing to get a kid to do for me), shown true contrition to his victim, got up on stage at school and given a mea culpa to the school, had he done anything at all we'd know about it.

As far as I can tell he has done nothing more than what he had to do to not get locked up in juvi' and try to still get drafted, none of which is finding his way back.

Does that mean the door to redemption is shut? of course not, he can still take a long and and uncompromising moral inventory and do the work he needs to do to become a better person, should this stop him from going to college, getting a degree and finding a regular job? again of course not, this act shouldnt follow him if he wants to be an ordinary schmoe like the rest of us, just if he wants to take up a position that is considered a privilege and an honour

[Hey Connor, It's Mess]

Originally Posted by timbit

No apology and no repentance.
Tough to forgive.

To neither this victim nor to the other victims who were also black.

Anyone seeing the patterns? And people think this kid should have the privilege of putting on an NCAA sweater, nevermind an NHL one.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by shogged

https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=...=1&oi=scholart

If you're 14 and you still don't understand right from wrong, you're likely suffering from Autism (like you suggested he may be earlier) or a personality disorder (psychopath).

None of us could say which for sure obviously, but the facts on moral development have been enshrined in science for well over 50 years. This was not a normal thing for a 14 year old to do, at all.

No one claimed it was normal. The claim (not mine) was that all 14 year olds know right from wrong. Which is false. And studies clearly show that children develop a sense of morality at different rates. And this development can be stunted by trauma, among other things.

And not all psychological disorders equate to psychopaths.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by cannon7

No one claimed it was normal. The claim (not mine) was that all 14 year olds know right from wrong. Which is false. And studies clearly show that children develop a sense of morality at different rates. And this development can be stunted by trauma, among other things.

And not all psychological disorders equate to psychopaths.

He’s 18 years old NOW. Why no apology ....why no repentance?

That’s a monumental problem!

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

So, I'm seeing a lot of posts here saying that the real thing that's standing in the way of him getting a second chance is that he has never apologized to the kid he bullied.

Honest question. If he were to issue an apology tomorrow, would that do it? Would he then be allowed to pursue a hockey career, in your view? Or would you then say, "well, that apology isn't sincere, he's only offering it because of all the media scrutiny and pressure on the team not to sign him"?

I'm actually curious.

[Plaedo]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I have made a living trying to help troubled kids 'find a way back' for 40 odd years, finding a way back though requires a sight more than just doing what the probation order forced you to do and then going back to working on your stick handling for a couple of years in the hopes that you will be good enough a player that everyone will ignore your lack of a moral compass, and we all know if the kid had done anything at all, volunteered with the special olympics or walked stray dogs (a personal favorite thing to get a kid to do for me), shown true contrition to his victim, got up on stage at school and given a mea culpa to the school, had he done anything at all we'd know about it.

As far as I can tell he has done nothing more than what he had to do to not get locked up in juvi' and try to still get drafted, none of which is finding his way back.

Does that mean the door to redemption is shut? of course not, he can still take a long and and uncompromising moral inventory and do the work he needs to do to become a better person, should this stop him from going to college, getting a degree and finding a regular job? again of course not, this act shouldnt follow him if he wants to be an ordinary schmoe like the rest of us, just if he wants to take up a position that is considered a privilege and an honour

How do you define a position that is considered a privilege and an honour? Where do you draw the line?

Unless I am satisfied with this distinction you are trying to make, I would say simply the markets and the individuals dictate who can do what job. If an organization in their assessment deems the public image risk worth the reward of specialized skills they will decide to employ an individual. It doesn't matter if you are a gifted math genius or a world-class skater. Or, an organization will take a moral stance and forego the opportunity/risk because it is too much of a risk to the culture and brand. Either way, I wouldn't say we could necessarily prescribe what an organization/individual can do.

If you are making the distinction based on punitive reasons, I would say that a position/job that is an honour is subjective to the individual. Some would even say that being an Accountant is an honour. Furthermore, any employee represents their company in some capacity, on the frontlines or not.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Nope too little too late

[afc wimbledon]

I feel some pity for this kid just because I can guess where he comes from, I have no doubt he's got some idiot racist father back at home with a MAGA hat on who doesnt care how his kid behaves as long as he's tough and good at hockey, I also have no doubt dads attitude to this is it's the schools fault for making a good kid like his have to share space with r******* n******** that shouldn't be allowed into regular schools, the kid has no doubt been fed this racist bull since he was a toddler, I doubt he's mentally ill in the classic sense although kids like this go on to be sad drunken wrecks when they can't make that final step into the majors to please dad and depression follows that like a caboose follows a train.

The best thing for his personal development probably is if this incident completely ruins his plans, he might learn from that, the worst thing? if he can just skate through the whole mess without loss never learning that this kind of behavior is both reprehensible and will do him more harm than the kids he bullied.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Nope too little too late

What he did was immensely wrong and awful, accentuated.

A contrite and sincere apology is not too little nor too late.

It better not be...or we are all “too little too late”, IMO.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I have made a living trying to help troubled kids 'find a way back' for 40 odd years, finding a way back though requires a sight more than just doing what the probation order forced you to do and then going back to working on your stick handling for a couple of years in the hopes that you will be good enough a player that everyone will ignore your lack of a moral compass, and we all know if the kid had done anything at all, volunteered with the special olympics or walked stray dogs (a personal favorite thing to get a kid to do for me), shown true contrition to his victim, got up on stage at school and given a mea culpa to the school, had he done anything at all we'd know about it.

We would? Had you heard of this kid before today?

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

As far as I can tell he has done nothing more than what he had to do to not get locked up in juvi' and try to still get drafted, none of which is finding his way back.

Maybe not. But it's an improvement on what he was doing before. We all need to start somewhere.

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Does that mean the door to redemption is shut? of course not, he can still take a long and and uncompromising moral inventory and do the work he needs to do to become a better person, should this stop him from going to college, getting a degree and finding a regular job? again of course not, this act shouldnt follow him if he wants to be an ordinary schmoe like the rest of us, just if he wants to take up a position that is considered a privilege and an honour

Agree. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. He's a fourth round draft pick. There's a long road to the NHL, and the odds were stacked against him before this scandal broke.

He has n opportunity to set a positive example for all the other troubled kids out there. I, for one, hope me makes the most of it. Only time will tell.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Plaedo

How do you define a position that is considered a privilege and an honour? Where do you draw the line?

Unless I am satisfied with this distinction you are trying to make, I would say simply the markets and the individuals dictate who can do what job. If an organization in their assessment deems the public image risk worth the reward of specialized skills they will decide to employ an individual. It doesn't matter if you are a gifted math genius or a world-class skater. Or, an organization will take a moral stance and forego the opportunity/risk because it is too much of a risk to the culture and brand. Either way, I wouldn't say we could necessarily prescribe what an organization/individual can do.

If you are making the distinction based on punitive reasons, I would say that a position/job that is an honour is subjective to the individual. Some would even say that being an Accountant is an honour. Furthermore, any employee represents their company in some capacity, on the frontlines or not.

Different gigs have different standards, this action would, even in Canada, make it hard for him to get a position with kids, if he wanted to work in a group home he'd have to wait out 2 years after his 19th birthday to apply when he would be formally pardoned.

Life hasnt been unfair to him, he did something appalling and it is following him in the same way it would follow all of us, we would all have to decide if that thing we did would stop us from getting a certain job or drivers license or the like, I have kids paying off insurance claims into their 30's unable to get a car because of some dumb stunt they pulled in their teens

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

So, I'm seeing a lot of posts here saying that the real thing that's standing in the way of him getting a second chance is that he has never apologized to the kid he bullied.

Honest question. If he were to issue an apology tomorrow, would that do it? Would he then be allowed to pursue a hockey career, in your view? Or would you then say, "well, that apology isn't sincere, he's only offering it because of all the media scrutiny and pressure on the team not to sign him"?

I'm actually curious.

I would certainly be in the camp that it wasn't sincere and he's only doing it because of pressure from media, the NHL and the Coyotes. However, if his victim thought he was sincere and wanted to put this in the past, then I think that would go along way to begin his redemption and at the end of the day it's only his victims that he should have to answer to (as we have clearly established he served his criminal punishment).

He had the ability to try to make amends for 4 years when doing so would be a big indication that he was changed person who actually wanted a second chance and felt remorse. Even if his victim didn't accept his apology (which considering how quickly they accepted the apology of the other boy I doubt they would not have accepted his if it was sincere) that would have gone a long way in showing that he actually had matured. Now doing so only because of outside pressure doesn't mean he's looking to change or matured, it means he's only got some common sense or at least a team behind him with some common sense.

And a lot of this comes from his, what I would certainly characterize, as dishonest letter to the NHL teams (and apparently multiple NHL teams also found it dishonest). To say he never did anything after the incident and that his victim is a friend, especially knowing that he spent 2 years after the incident tormenting him, this isn't the actions of someone with remorse in my opinion.

But I also don't have issues with him pursing a hockey career in any case. I also have no issue with teams avoiding him because of his past and fans rooting against him for his actions.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Honestly, I don't think you understand the bullying that can go on.

Outside of killing Miller, the options of the victim's parents are limited. What else can they do? The police were involved, there was a criminal case, he still persisted. Moving their disabled teen around to a different school because he is being bullied may cause more harm, moving from the community may be impossible. Punishing him because he is bullied by telling him he can't hang out in the same social groups? What does that say to the victim?

Frankly I think it's disgusting you're blaming the mother of the victim and alluding to her lying frequently.

A question for you. You are throwing a lot of vitriol at this person without knowing them. Given what we know about bullying - high propensity for mental illness and high potential for previous abuse can you see a scenario where you would feel bad about your current stance. If this kid was beaten every night like Patrick O’Sullivan was or some other severe abuse or illness would that change the way you are posting?

And if it would shouldn’t the fact that it is in the realm of reasonable possibilities that maybe we shouldn’t be passing such harsh judgement without knowing the situation.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

So, I'm seeing a lot of posts here saying that the real thing that's standing in the way of him getting a second chance is that he has never apologized to the kid he bullied.

Honest question. If he were to issue an apology tomorrow, would that do it? Would he then be allowed to pursue a hockey career, in your view? Or would you then say, "well, that apology isn't sincere, he's only offering it because of all the media scrutiny and pressure on the team not to sign him"?

I'm actually curious.

Personally, I thought it was at the extreme end of bullying and I don’t know what people would think an appropriate action would be due to the level of his actions. But, I think he has a good opportunity to make amends if he’s actually changed. It would include an apology and a request to meet with the Hockey Diversity Alliance. Ahead of it though, like it was his idea. If I was trying to right some wrongs in my past that’s what I would do.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by timbit

What he did was immensely wrong and awful, accentuated.

A contrite and sincere apology is not too little nor too late.

It better not be...or we are all “too little too late”, IMO.

I just don’t know how ones determines if it was sincere
He has had ample opportunity. The main change is his possible nhl career is maybe perhaps at risk. At minimum an apology would have to be paired with specific and sustained actions on his part